<html><h2>hnns</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 3>>\nPersonally I wouldn't have providing all 300M citizens basic health care excluded from the "limited role" government should have towards their citizens.\n<<update>>\n[[all 300 million citizens are not without healthcare]]
<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 11>>\nThe solution isn't to be found in forcing a whole reform on a whole system due to negligence of one group of people. If we're going to have a bleeding heart for every unfortunate thing in the world, how are we to function? Probably reforming education in the US would be a much, much better and more efficient use of $900 billion.\n<<update>>\nThere's always going to be those with and those without and this can't be avoided. We say, nominally, that we are all born equal. But in the end we are not equal because of the choices we make in life. The best we can do is afford the opportunity to everyone. Which the US currently does.\n\n<html><hr></html>\n[[really dude?]]\n[[single payer.]]\n[[Really?]]\n[[paternalism sucks]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 7>>\nI see, out of actual arguments again. And if you had a job I gueess you would have said so by now...\n<<update>>\nBut of course you are right, the working class has always been very fond and supportive of self-proclaimed intelectuals sitting at home roaming the internet and telling them what they should think.\n\nReally, you should go to a factory and hold a speech there.\n\n<html><hr></html>\n[[do you really want me to waste my time]]\n[[hypocrisy is hypocrisy.]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\ndid i not get the job done?\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 8>>\n<html><blockquote>\naww, you are cute when raging. Just like a little kid.\n</blockquote></html>\nwho said i was raging?\n\n<html><blockquote>\nCome to think of that kids also have very simplistic and "interesting" views of the world.\n</blockquote></html>\nlook in the mirror, kiddo.\n<<update>>\n<html><blockquote>\nBut if you behave from now on I promise you a nice warm cocoa before bed time <3\n</blockquote></html>\nso clever.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nSeriously though, I've been called an idiot here countless times, surprisingly always by raged people who disagree with me. see: www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1751680\n</blockquote></html>\never consider that you might actually be stupid?\n\n<html><blockquote>\nCan't remeber if that ever happened to me in real life, though. Usually the opposite.\n</blockquote></html>\nprobably because you're not nearly as inflammatory or provocative irl.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nSo, I think I will let you know that the only time, I will accept someone's judgement about me, including calling me an idiot, is when they are a) not raged b) not disagreeing.\n</blockquote></html>\nneither condition affects the validity of the person's conclusions.\n\n[[in discussions in real life are not in written form and therefore won't be brushed away that easily.]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 30>>\nI did, you are just unable to see it. (This is actually the second time, I answered the same question preemptitively a hile back)\n<<update>>\nYou made up your mind to disregard my arguments and class them as pointless before actually reading them.\n\nAnd since you see them as pointless you see the discussion as a waste of your time.\n\nWhich at this constellation it actually is, since you are unable to learn from my examples and arguments.\n\nI actually wrote the very same thing a while back, when I wrote my realization that you didn't really participate, especially when you declared you simply want to complain about capitalism but not discuss the benefits.\n\nThere are two solutions: a) you continue like this and yes the discussion will be worthless and a waste of both out times b) you manage to read arguments and examples objectively.\n\nAnd I doubt you are able to do b as shown by your constant insults which are really quite embarraring to see. Also I think that is quite ironic, since you try to advocate a system of cooperation while all you manage is confrontation.\n\nHow do you suppose you should convince other doubters of your idea if not through objective argumentation? Maybe force us for our own good?\n\nBut I am digressing, to answer your question with the same sentence I used in the last comment, which you were apparantly unable to understand:\n\n"And since we now reached the same point where our two, divided, discussions started (although you have failed to contribute long ago), I will end my participation here" \n\nThere is your answer: No, as long as you are unable to revise your style of discussion it is utterly pointless.\n\n[[yes or no?]]
<html><h2>G.I. Jonesy</h2></html>\n<<set $score = 1>><<update>>\nThe government does not need to be in every aspect of your lives. In fact, the government needs to be in almost none of your lives. When you use a system like socialism or communism, and the government fails, you are fucked. If the government becomes tyrannical, you are fucked. Id software says the CPL can't use Quake anymore, the Quake community is fucked. Unfortunately, most Quake players are European socialists. With their total lack of personal control, personal liberty and personal initiative, Quake has all but died, with its only chance of resurrection coming from.... the government, as id software re-releases Quake 3 in the form of Quake Live.\n\nSo tell me, honestly, socialists and communists... how do you manage, every day of your lives, to lie down and take it up the ass? I'm only asking because if the United States completely loses its mind, which doesn't seem far off, I might have to learn. \n\nI am not a conservative or a liberal. I am an American - a person of liberty. You don't force anything on me, I won't force anything on you. But I will defend myself in the case you attempt to force something on me, whether it be taxes, unjustifiable punishment, or anything else.\n\n<html><hr></html>\n[[you don't know what socialism is.]]\n[[KILL A COMMIE]]\n[[Americans whining because their president wants to make sure everyone can get medical care]]\n\n
<html><h2>cyan</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 5>>\noh wow, America had soldiers in Normandy... amazing.\n<<update>>\nI also like the fact that you use one of the most flawed WWII movies in history to prove your point, which is?\n\nRead why they ended up on the beaches of Normandy, you might learn something u stupid paki.\n\n[[they came to free your ungrateful ass]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 6>>\nnothing to do with stupid. But of course you always jump to a conclusion and add an insult. Man, I really have to learn that debate and ethics stuff from you...\n<<update>>\nCome on now, claim once more that I am going straight for the ad hominem again, while you just deliver solid arguments. Please, it's always so funny :D\n\n<html><hr></html>\n[[where is the argument]]\n[[why don't you think workers should have any control?]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nvideo tape the speech please.\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 0>>\n<html><div class="quote">\n<blockquote>the core principle of socialism is that workers control the means of production.</blockquote><br />\nand if you had ever actually worked and met your average worker, you would soon realize that that is the dumbest shit ever :D<br /><br />\n<<update>>\nBut go on, believe in your dream, not like it's ever gonna happen.\n</div>\n\n\n<div class="quote">\n<blockquote>if you defy your master, then you will be left to starve or subordinate yourself to another tyrant.</blockquote><br />\nthen quit your job, and start working as a farmer and by that be you own boss, instead of leeching of my money. \nSee how you like the hours there...<br /><br />\n\n<blockquote>not really, it's taken from the state. those taxes were essentially stolen and might as well be used to FUCKING HELP PEOPLE.</blockquote><br />\nOh taxes are used to help people and pay our police and our firemen and our teachers and so on. but why would I want to buy some lazy person food who can get his own?<br /><br />\n\n<blockquote>like a boss who steals what you create and earns a profit off of it, without lifting a finger.</blockquote><br />\nwell, you obviously haven't got a clue about work organisation.<br /><br />\n\n<blockquote>\nis there like some kind of fox news in germany or some shit?</blockquote><br />\nsomething similar if not as bad. However, I have unplugged my TV 5 years ago. But your brain seems to be seriously influenced by anti-capitalistic propaganda, way beyond you managing to think about the stuff yourself.\n<br /><br />\nI mean you have even failed to grasp what capitalism as a theory actually means. You seem to have no clue how work mechanics such as specialisation, organisation and (yes I'm gonna say the evil word) management function.\n<br /><br />\nYour contributions so far have painted you as a selfrighteous egoist, who would enjoy it if everyone paid for his lifestyle and is unable to feel bad about taking money form others without giving anything in return.\n</div></html>\n\n[[do you see the fox news line as a compliment?]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 5>>\n<html><blockquote>\njust to pick one:\n\nI also gave examples of benefits of capitalism to show that calling it all bad is stupid, yes. yeah, the whole "efficiency" argument which is more than debunked.\n<<update>>\nthat is a good example of your understanding of debate. You don't bother to think about what someone is actually saying, you just assume what you think or have read somewhere is correct.\n\nWhenever I do something even remotely similar (complexity of economic systems) you complain.\n</blockquote></html>\n1. that quote doesn't support any of the allegations against me, which came from you.\n2. your "efficiency" argument is fucked\n\n<html><blockquote>\nYou are measuring with two measures.\n</blockquote></html>\nyou are sucking two dicks. (aka i don't understand)\n\n<html><blockquote>\nAny comparison to a theoretical system is flawed from the beginning.\n</blockquote></html>\nwtf theoretical?\n\n<html><blockquote>\nBut discussing that would be an actual discussing, therefore a pointless endeavor.\n</blockquote></html>\nsucking dicks that would be an actual sucking dicks, therefore a pointless endeavor.\n\n[[you already told me what you system of choice would be.]]
<html><h2>Eviili</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 4>>\nOK, BUD!!\n\nWere not the ones trying to change our system americunts are, as I said we are satisfied with ours...\n\nalso its not russia u dork, but slovenia...u probably never even heard for us\n\n[[I don't care what part of Russia you're from]]
<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 15>>\nIt's hardly that simple. How do you screen payments? How do you determine the doctors who are over-charging or doing unnecessary things (and thereby driving the costs up)? How do you properly deal with the doctors found to be overcharging or even doctors who are inept and taking payments for things they're not doing? How do you confirm that the medical attention sought was of the proper quality and not some voodoo witchdoctor new-age healing? \n<<update>>\nAnd don't say that these are hypotheticals that don't need to be addressed. Anything of this magnitude needs total and absolute consistency and well-playing. \n\nIt's not as easy as having one guy with a rubber stamp and postage paid envelopes sending out checks to doctors. The $900 billion represents $900 billion towards a massive, inefficient bureaucracy that acts as a middle man between doctors and citizens.\n\n[[doing a heckuva job]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 5>>\nyou've got the causation backward.\n<<update>>\nthe core principle of socialism is that workers control the means of production. if some economic model is called socialism, but doesn't adhere to the principles of socialism, then how is it socialism?\n\n[[that is the dumbest shit ever]]
<html><h2>tourist</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 4>>\nI hear where you're coming from brother. Myself, I'm not for any of that "others take care of me" shit. You get ill, take care of it, you get shot, you take it out with a rusty spoon. Healthcare is for pussies.\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]
<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\n???\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 6>>\nyou said this:\n<<update>>\n<html><blockquote>\nIt's basically like someone who comes into your home every evening and demands that you let him eat your icecream. And when you tell him to gtfo he declares that buying his own icecream is such a hassle.\n</blockquote></html>\nyou pretty much equated someone getting welfare with someone personally stealing from you, which makes me think you got this straight from bill o'reilly. not trying to insult you or anything, but it makes me think theres some very anti-"lower class" propaganda in the corporate media there.\n\n[[Why would you want to make a classfight out of this?]]
<html><h2>hnns</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 4>>\nAha, so 50 million without healthcare are mostly people that don't want it(I mean why would they?) and the rest are people who are so "inept in self-management and prudence" that they don't deserve it anyway. There is no problem after all! Excellent analysis!!!\n<<update>>\n[[Deserving it has nothing to do with it.]]
<<set $score = "O">>\n<html><div align="center">\nW E L C O M E   T O\n<a href="#" onclick="javascript:state.display('Start2', this);return false;" style="background:none; text-align:center;"><img src="https://www.kentsheely.com/flamewar-deluxe/titleteal.gif" width="500"></div></html> \n<html><div id="startButton"><a href="#" onclick="javascript:state.display('Start2', this);return false;" style="background:none; text-decoration:none; text-align:center"><img src="start.png"></a></div></html>\n<<update>>\n
<html><h2>VoO</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nNice summary of Zeitgeist 2.\n<<update>>\n[[Didn't know there was a Zeitgeist 2.]]
<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 43>>\nNo, I'm not. I'm officially registered independent. My personal opinions are independent. I believe association with political parties is a mark of an ignorant mind because people who say, "I'm such-and-such" are basically saying, "I don't know the issues, but this sounds good to me." To want to label yourself something is, as well, equally sad. You're saying the label itself is worth more than your own opinions. If I was to say, {"I'm a Republican" or "I'm a Democrat" to someone, they should thus already know, fairly well, what kind of political beliefs I hold and any criticism is a criticism of a whole system (i.e., of a whole political party's establishment). If I say, "I'm an independent", they know nothing about my political beliefs without inquiring and myself required to erudition on what I believe and they can then criticize what I believe without criticizing a whole system of thought. Thus political alignments act as a shield for a person's meek understanding of exactly what they believe.\n<<update>>\nAnd no, I'm not greedy. I'm fairly anti-materialistic and my tastes are simple. I spend most of my free time reading. But I believe, without reservation, that a man is to be measured by his actions and more importantly his rational and reason-based actions. A man of passions and no reasons, which represents, what I believe, the average America, is a pathetic creature.\n\nMen so swayed by their emotions and passions is common today and which is why I believe imprudence to be so rampant and the main causation for people unable to take care of themselves. They make decisions based on their desires. Desire to drive a nice car, to wear the latest fashions, to have the nicest TV with the latest video game systems -- they are slaves to their desires which, in my opinion, is what is called in social psychology as "prestige imitation." In years past, when men like Voltaire ruled the popular culture of the late 1700s, the best prestige of men was intellectual, in reason, and in bohemian sophistication. But in our mass media society, the prestige imitation is the materialism of nouveau riche celebrities in popular culture. \n\nSo you can see why I don't have sympathy for people who can't take care of themselves because they won't admit responsible for their actions. This admitting to fault requires a reasonable mind and yet there aren't many of those out there these days.\n\n[[I had someone ask me today]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\ni was seriously responding to this sarcastic sentence:\n<<update>>\n<html><blockquote>Yes because a whole political philosophy can be defined by one domestic issue.</blockquote></html>\n\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 7>>\nyeh awesome, that makes everyone get to know each other.\nnot.\n\nand they do in the modern capitalist world?\n\nThere will still be resentiments between the communities.\nEspecially if there are problems, e.g. shortage of food or just a certain medicine.\n\nThere will also be many problem with envy, if one community works better than the other.\n\nallegedly.\n<<update>>\n[[oh come on]]
<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 32>>\nWhere did you learn your economics?\n<<update>>\nValuation of currency depends on a myriad of things. Since the US went to floating fiat currency with Nixon administration (i.e., that the dollar isn't tied to the value of gold/silver like Ron Paul says it should be), that the value of the currency floats on the open market. The importance of this drives international trade. China keeps their currency pegged to a good trade value (from the US's perspective) so that Chinese goods are extremely cheap to import for the US and more expensive for the Chinese people themselves. Another measure of this "power of money" is what is called "Purchasing Power Parity" where a common, equivalent good is priced in a standard currency (if you're in US, the easiest perspective to take is from US$). So, for instance, you say that an "apple" costs the equivalent of $0.50 in the US but costs $1.25 in Sweden (I'm making these numbers up just as an example of the point). \n\nForeign exchange rates swing and sway because of open market trading of foreign exchange. Analysts sit around all day looking at different figures, the more obscure the better, to get an edge of what all the other analysts perceive to be a coming shift in the "risk" of a nation's currency valuation.\n\nI think what you might be referring to (in your feeble attempt at making a point about the shady value of the US dollar) is the open market activities of the US Federal Bank. This is "termed monetary" policy and where the terms Keynesian and Classical economic models come from. In open market activities, the Fed will purchase or sell overnight Treasury Bills in massive amounts. So, in a purchasing move, they push out more "money" into circulation (i.e., into the hands investors, commonly large investment banks or hedge funds, that held the overnight ). \n\n[[Continued...|Where2]]
FlameWar Deluxe - Score: <<print $score>>\n
<html><h2>crea</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nThe dept of a country represents its wealth, not its dept! xD\n<<update>>\n[[The only thing of significance]]
<html><h2>hnns</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nI can't figure out if he's trolling or just INSANE =/\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]
<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 3>>\nDoesn't seem right to reduce an intellectual triumph as were the words of John Locke, Thomas Paine, and Thomas Jefferson to your feeble understanding of history. Well done, sir.\n<<update>>\n[[Oh give me a break]]
<html><h2>TAFKAagardenchair</h2></html>\n\nI find it a bit strange that young people talk about socialism, capitalism and communism, away from history class. Me thinks very few politicians nowadays believe in isms or state ideologies anymore. And if so, they are dreaming about them at night. \n\nIn Germany we have a "GroBe Koalition" ('big coalition') between CDU and SPD, something like a shotgun-wedding between the conservatives and the social-democrats, the undecided voter being the father with the shotgun.In light of this awkward situation, this is a perfect time for small parties to go hunting for people that do not have a valid political orientation, voters that neither possess the intellectual means to shape a prolific opinion or who just don't care. In the case of "Die Linke" (a splinter party lead by a former GDR politician and a deserted social democrat) this will mean that they will gain massively and the big parties CDU and SPD will lose, perhaps being thrown into another big coalition again. The smaller FDP, the liberal democrats, that pretty much endorse something which you might call 'capitalism', have fallen in love with debating with Die Linke about social welfare and also position themselves behind the chancellor (CDU) at the same time. These politicians are like managers controlling the power, not much true ideology behind it anymore, with a few exceptions. More of the same coming up, including bad coffee and crappy soaps.\n\n[[While I do think Gysi is a big populist and also should make the funding of his party public]]
<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nSorry, but some things transcend their originating eras.\n<<update>>\n[[people like to pick and choose]]
<html><h2>azmo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\n<3\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 16>>\nPerhaps. Even better analysis would be finding those people and see exactly why the can't. My impression, that I got from working at a bank for 3 and a half years, is that people are absolutely imprudent with their money. And here in my medium sized town, the imprudence is rampant, even in those people you'd think had some sense. They have bluetooth ear-pieces and brand new Blackberries, drive nice cars, but collect welfare because they're only working 20 hours a week. \n<<update>>\nYou don't resolve the personal issues and personal choices of a group of people by reforming a whole system to cork one aspect. \n\nI'd like to know the figures where people are working 40 hours a week, being careful with their money and STILL not being able to afford healthcare. That would be a much, much better starting point to throw statistics from. Looks to me, from what I read, that only 1.5 million full-time employees lost their healthcare. Hardly seems like a crisis to me.\n\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 29>>\nIt's got nothing to do with deserving. By saying one person deserves this over another, it's implied that one person has some kind of basis that makes them more "worthy" of something and that the thing "deserved" is in limited supply. Anyone with medical problems IS worthy of medical attention (which is available equally to all people -- it is illegal for a hospital to turn away someone that needs life-saving medical attention).\n<<update>>\nMy point is that it's a backwards approach to reform an entire industry when, as all experts say, that the best approach is prevention and that the best prevention comes with eating and living healthy, but the vast majority of people that this reform targets (to help at the expense of everyone else) are people that are self-neglecting. \n\nIt is this rising tide of people who are self-neglecting that are driving health insurances price up (which, btw, is excessively over-emphasized since most people have only see a minor, negligible jump in their healthcare).\n\nIt's bizarre to think about years past when young people where taught Rand's Objectivism growing up (as my parents were in high-school and college): that the only person that will take care of you is yourself. But that kind of mentality is long gone these days in popular thought/culture. Now everyone feels that all other people are reasonable for them besides themselves.\n\nWhat will happen when an entire population doesn't feel responsible to take proper care of themselves and instead relies on everyone else to take care of the??\n\n[[So you think that the solution to your health care dilemma]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 4>>\n<html><blockquote>\nso let me get this straight:\n<<update>>\nFirst you get the impression I am trying to make you personally look stupid.\n\nThen you decide that I suck at that, which is kinda weird, since I never did it in the first place.\n\nThen you decide to make a fool out of yourself.\nAnd then you complain about me being worse at making you look stupid than you?\n</blockquote></html>\ndon't see a contradiction and i absolutely love how you ignored the content of my post and focussed on the benign comment.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nAlso, I can't seem to find the old thread so no quote atm. Will provide if you find it.\n</blockquote></html>\ni've given you links to thread.\n\n[[I edited it.]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nanswer the fucking question.\n<<update>>\n[[I did, you are just unable to see it]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 12>>\n<html><blockquote>\ndid I put that in your mouth???\n</blockquote></html>\nit was analogously figurative. didn't mean that you were actually a criminal.\n\n<html><blockquote>\ncomes from a German idiom. In this case it means that you look at your own statements in a different way that at mine.\n</blockquote></html>\nplease start recognizing it in yourself, then.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nhow about you stop accusing me of that?\n</blockquote></html>\nfuck off. if you're going to attribute statements to me that i did not make, then i will call you out on it.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nYou called taxes stealing.\n</blockquote></html>\nyes.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nI called taking welfare without need stealing.\n</blockquote></html>\nyep.\n<<update>>\n<html><blockquote>\nYou said I may not call accepting welfare thievery because it is legal.\n</blockquote></html>\nnope. i never said that you couldn't say something and i never reasoned that it wasn't thievery because it was legal. i may have mentioned that it was but you may ignore that.\n\n<html><blockquote>\ncorrect me if am wrong, but isn't saying someone doesn't know what he is talking about synomynous with saying they aren't qualified?\n</blockquote></html>\ndepends on the context. i suppose now would be a good time FOR YOU to clarify which definition of "qualified" you've been using, since there are multiple definitions.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nAnd even if it isn't, isn't saying "You don't know what the fuck you are talking about" a personal attack?\n</blockquote></html>\nyep, but that doesn't mean it's an ad hominem.\n\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\noh come on, you are not telling me humans are not capable of envy, are you?\n<<update>>\n[[i am not telling you anything i didn't say.]]
<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nI had someone ask me today if philosophy was the same as pedarasty. I said yes!\n<<update>>\n[[???|???2]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 36>>\n<html><blockquote>\nwhat the fuck are you talking about? "very complex" is a nothing but a "subjective judgment", as you'd say, and the complexity of the orientation of people and capital, in a given economic system, have absolutely nothing to do with what we were debating in the previous thread.\n</blockquote></html>\ngiven the enourmous amounts of literature about the facettes of economic systems, I think it's highly doubtful that calling the topic complex is subjective. I also doubt that anyone whose articles oyu have read would cliam the subject is trivial.\n<<update>>\nYeah, talking about persons getting money from welfare has nothing to with people and capital...\n\n<html><blockquote>\n"i did notify you of the names of the many fallacies you used, though. maybe you should read their definitions."</blockquote></html>\nabout the fallcies you wanted to see, it seems very much like you read an article (wiki maybe?) about arguments and simply thought you could use some of the definitions. \nHowever, you completely missed the part where you have to give reasons for your opinion and resulting classification.\n \nIf I go ahead and declare you have the knowledge of a schoolkid and add a definition of schoolkid, you would demand that I give reasons for that, wouldn't you? Again, you try to be competitor and judge in one person. That is never possible.\n\nThat behavious actually becomes most obvious (as I said several times now), where you question my qualification, which I responded to with listing my eduction and questioning whether you had the qualification to judge mine.\n\nYou then concluded that my response was a personal attack, while your preceding judgement of me wasn't. \n\nYou even admitted that your ethics were subjective, but still insist that you are capable to judge objectively.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nit's pointless because your motivation is to make me look stupid and mine is to debate. there's a conflict of interest for you. you know if i started debating you seriously you'd just bitch out, like the last thread.\n</blockquote></html>\nMy motiviation was to show that giving welfare to people who have the chance to get work but don't is stupid, yes. I also had the motivation to show that the economic system you propose is too idealistic und unrealistic and also that I think your view is too one-sided (which I do think you'd agree would be stupid), yes. I also gave examples of benefits of capitalism to show that calling it all bad is stupid, yes. \n\nBut I very much think that is part of a debate.\n\nI never called you personally stupid, that is something you would do.\n\nIronically, I think in this thread you did a way better job at making you look stupid than I could have ever done.\n\n[[argumentum ad populum/appeal to authority]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 10>>\na stable economic system, that lasted for at least one generation, so long-term effects are known.\n<<update>>\nit was stable, but they were defeated in war. anyway, to answer you question, the israeli kibbutzim, most anarcho-primitivist societies and many anarchist communes all adhere to the to your conditions and to my egalitarian desires.\n\nThe system in the German Democratic Republic worked well enough in the first years, too. And went to shit later. How sure can you be the same would not have happened in Spain?\n\nquestion isn't specific enough.\n\n[[all the group you named are too small]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 2>>\npoor victim, becks. we should all feel so sorry for you because you are blamed for a mistake you made.\n<<update>>\n[[poor Lo]]
<html><h2>tourist</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nhistory? It's Saving Private Ryan, not McRyan or Ryaninoff you dumb commie.\n<<update>>\n[[oh wow, America had soldiers in Normandy]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 9>>\nwell, when it comes to the spectrum of socialism, the main groups are state socialism and libertarian socialism. there are some varieties of state socialism that i don't consider to be valid forms of socialism, as long as the means of production are controlled by the state and not the workers.(through federated unions or whatever) i happen to be a libertarian-socialist/anarchist/anarcho-syndicalist and think that it is the proper way for a society to organize autonomously. are you an anarcho-capitalist?\n<<update>>\n<html><hr></html>\n[[I don't know what I am]]\n[[Oh, if you don't consider them valid I guess they can't be]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 28>>\n<html><blockquote>\nseems like you are wasting your time anyway.\n</blockquote></html>\ni am. i'm pretty fucking stupid for wasting hours and hours of my time on someone like you.\n<<update>>\n<html><blockquote>\nBoth with commenting here, calling me neames, etc and also with all your reasearch.\n</blockquote></html>\nlol\n\n<html><blockquote>\nNo, the end of the line for me is that you never accepted or understood(?) all the examples and arguments I stated about benefits of capitalism and tried to see them as my opinion or simply irrelevant. Note: You cannot claim a fallacy, on the grounds that you diagree.\n</blockquote></html>\nit's not my fault that you can't reason your way out of an open shoe box.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nNo, if you want to see someone who is so obsessed with his own opinion the he cannot even look at arguments in an unbiased way, you just need to look into a mirror.\n</blockquote></html>\nyou just need to look in the mirror, bro. cmon bro do it!\n\n<html><blockquote>\nBecause ultimately the thing you do not see is, that is is always so much easier to bitch about the flaws of an exisiting system then about an theoretical system that mostly consists of general approaches and lack solutions for problems on the lowest level.\n</blockquote></html>\nhow do we improve ourselves without identifying our flaws? the solutions have been here for 150 years.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nBecause there is one premise in all those idealistic systems, which sound awesome in theory.\n</blockquote></html>\nquite a bit more than that, at least among the left-libertarian ideologies.\n\n[[Continue...|i'm pretty fucking stupid for wasting hours and hours of my time on someone like you 2]]
<html><h2>Ignignokt</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 3>>\nOh give me a break. Great thinkers and all that but not everything is applicable to the modern world. Besides I don't think Thomas Paine would object.\n<<update>>\n[[some things transcend their originating eras]]
<html><h2>tourist</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nI'm sure you know quite many bums who are living the american dream.\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>tourist</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 2>>\nnewsflash: america is the nr.1 world superpower. how do you think they got to be that? by petting dolphins? idiot hippie\n<<update>>\n[[massive army > free medical care?]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 2>>\nif you want to call it that, go ahead.\n<<update>>\nHowever in that case you /ragequitted several times.\n\n[[when?]]
tourist\n\njonsey's first post reply. I am no longer a fan.\n\n[[neg.]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 0>>\n<html><blockquote>\nThat humans are altruistic or at the very least rational beings, with the ability to make perfect long-term decisions for the greater good of all.\n</blockquote></html>\nthat's a strawman. it would be like me saying that capitalism is a system whose premise is one that states humans are inherently evil. it's obviously false. socialists and anarchists of my ilk don't argue that we are naturally altruistic, but instead practice something called reciprocal altruism(aka mutual aid). there's a giant difference. i suggest you look it up. also we argue that social darwinism isn't natural to humans.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nWhich is something that research has proven wrong countless times, see "The experiment" for example.\n</blockquote></html>\nread "mutual aid: a factor in evolution" by kropotkin.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nAnother indication is the fact that if you look at it, capitalism does give everyone the opportunity to be altruistic and to make decisions that help everyone. It's just that people don't use them, but rather look for their own benefit.\n</blockquote></html>\nlmfao please explain.\n<<update>>\n<html><blockquote>\nThey do not aid the society in any way and do not contribute to the greater good.\n</blockquote></html>\nhow do bosses? tell me how does capitalism help progress humanity?\n\n<html><blockquote>\nAnd as long as there are people who think it is ok to benefit from the others they will destroy any system based on cooperation and mutual aid.\n</blockquote></html>\nno shit. this is the most profound thing you've said. this is precisely what capitalists do. they benefit from work that they don't do and invest insane amounts of capital to prevent democracy. you're on to something, bravo.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nAnd since we now reached the same point where our two, divided, discussions started (although you have failed to contribute long ago), I will end my participation here (and just put a ":D" whenver yo write a funny again.)\n</blockquote></html>\nyeah, i "failed to contribute" by responding to every single point you made while you just whined and dropped out of the argument.\n\n<html><blockquote>\np.s.: I will refrain from putting a childish insult, at the end, because I think everyone who reads your posts will form a personal opinion.\n</blockquote></html>\nlmfao, the rest of your post is loaded with childish insults. how does refraining at the end of the post add any weight to your arguments or credibility?\n\n[[I have replied to most of those statements before.]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nI don't think Croatia had even one billion :P\n<<update>>\n[[Thought he was American]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 2>>\npoor Lo we should all feel sorry for yourself since you can't even see a mistake you made if it's thrown at you.\n<<update>>\n:(\n\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\n:D\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>cyan</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 6>>\nNo, they did not.\n<<update>>\nThey came because the public wanted revenge for the attack of Pearl Harbor and because it made the goverment look bad that they were attacked by the "japs".\n\nThe USSR already knocked on the doors of Poland when the americans, british and australians landed the beaches of Normandy. And no, im not russian.\n\n[[you're just a clueless hippie.]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 18>>\n<html><blockquote>\nPOW! lol, i don't think any rational person wants their coworker, who wants to work and have food to eat, to get fired.</blockquote></html>\nlol\n<<update>>\nyeah they do. \n\nIn the cases where those coworkers plain suck, fuck everything up so you have to correct their work or where they make mistakes that threaten the health of their colleagues.\n\ne.g. I had a colleague once who had two car accidents at work in half a year because he was drunk during the day.\nWE didn't want him to be fired as such, becuase he was good at his actual job. When he wasn't drunk.\nLuckily for us the boss stepped and told him to get rid of his problem or consider himself fired.\n\nThat worked.\n\nI doubt it would have worked if we as his colleagues had told him.\n\nThe rest of your statements are just your opinions and propaganda, so here:\n\n:D\n\n[[i can understand all of this]]
<html><h2>tbone</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\n?\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 5>>\n<html><blockquote>\nAlso I believe listing Kibbutz is not correct, because I don't think they adhere to all your principles. Imagine asking a Palestinean to move in with them.\n</blockquote></html>\nit's mostly pre-1948, genius. reading wiki is not rocket surgery.\n<<update>>\n<html><blockquote>\nall the group you named are too small, imo.\n</blockquote></html>\nI believe it's commen sense that a community works the best as long as everyone knows each other. But at some point the group is too big for that and that is when you will get more and more problems.\n\nfederated communities, bruh.\n\n[[yeh awesome]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 15>>\nthere is none, as in our previous discussion, which I did implied with the "again".\n<<update>>\nYou didn't deliver back then, added insults and questioned my qualification, thus trying to invalidate my actual arguments.\nWhen I called you out on the qualification, you got all defensive, blamed me for going "ad hominem" and accused me of bad ethics and lack of debate skills.\nAdditionally, you where attempting to impossibilty of being a competitor and the referee in one, by simply trying to brush away the arguments you didn't like, by claiming objective standards. While silmutaneously admitting you had very subjective ethics.\n\nYeah, that pretty much sums you up.\n\nHave a nice day (and please don't forget to keep posting those funnies once in a while :) )\n\n<html><hr></html>\n[[delusional]]\n[[are you saying i didn't produce any arguments at all, in the previous thread?]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nahahahaha\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\ni'm just playing your game, so why don't you go fuck yourself?\n<<update>>\n[[oh please, not again]]
<html><h2>Thorin</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nGlad you admit it then.\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>tourist</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\ndid free healthcare kill the nazis? didn't think so.\n<<update>>\n[[No, the USSR and the British did.]]\n
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nIt is obvious that you have that opinion.\n<<update>>\n[[it is obvious that you're a fucking idiot]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 11>>\noh please, not again with this feeble attempt to turn things around. You were the first to start with the personal attacks the last time and you are again this time.\n<<update>>\nAnd of course you deny that and try to blame it on me.\n\nSo in fact you are just playing your own game again. \n\nI am also very intrigued how constant name-calling fits in with your worker cooperation and mutual aid concept. I suppose it would turn into something like this:\n"I say, we are all in this together and work together as a team of eqauls. And if you don't agree with my opinion how to run things, I'll fuck you up."\n\n<html><hr></html>\n[[here, you're insulting me]]\n[[You were the first to start with the personal attacks]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 11>>\n<html><blockquote>well, have you ever worked a real job?</blockquote></html>\n<<update>>\nyes.\n\n<html><blockquote>If not, then that is no insult.</blockquote></html>\n\nyes, it is. you set up a dichotomy where:\n\na.) i have never worked.\n\nor\n\nb.) i'm stupid.\n\nit's pretty insulting.\n\n<html><blockquote>But honestly, everyone who works and looks around with open eyes will tell you the same.</blockquote></html>\ni totally disagree. i think people actually prefer to be the masters of their destinies.\n\n<html><blockquote>Kinda egocentric to think you speak for all the workers and the labor movement, don't you agree?\n\nBut honestly, everyone who works and looks around with open eyes will tell you the same.\n\nEspecially, since labor movement was always about improving the life of workers within the existing system.</blockquote></html>\nlabor exists in all systems. it's not about just doing so under capitalism, specifically, but about improving working conditions entirely.\n\n<html><blockquote>Since yo are so keen on wiki and internet articles..</blockquote></html>\npoison the well.\n\n<html><blockquote>..here's a quote for you: "An active and free labour movement is considered by many to be an important element in maintaining democracy and for economic development."</blockquote></html>\nthis is right in line with the shit that i've been regurgitating over and over.\n\n<html><blockquote>So, in effect it is you who insults them for claiming you somehow speak for them.</blockquote></html>\nnot really.\n\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>reslox</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 8>>\nEvery time a loan or mortgage is approved in your bank or any other bank in the USA, it devalues every dollar in your pocket (through increases, incremental or otherwise of the money supply). If you're not free enough to hold on to your own money, you're not nearly free enough. To say nothing of the dubious legislation passed in your country since 9/11\n<<update>>\nNone are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.\n- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe\n\n[[Where did you learn your economics?]]\n
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\ni am not telling you anything i didn't say.\n<<update>>\n[[well, if people have envy and envy leads to problems]]
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<html><h2>hnns</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 6>>\ni didn't ridicule you based on your location on earth, i likened you to jamerio since clearly you both have similar way of looking at things. I have no respect for people like you nor do i have an interest in commenting on anything you said, more than I already have, that would be entirely pointless for both of us. take from it what you wish mate, i could care less.\n<<update>>\n[[Ahaha, how laughable]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 11>>\n<html><blockquote>\nhere are some quotes from there:\n\nit's like you got your debating "skills" from the white house. you assert the opposite and accuse others of your crimes.\n\nhere you are comparing me to a criminal.\n</blockquote></html>\ni was comparing you to the white house. don't put words in my mouth.\n<<update>>\n<html><blockquote>\nbut it's idiotic to equate legally receiving welfare, which is a DEMOCRATIC reform policy in germany, with thievery.\n\none ov several occasions where you use idiotic and similar words in reply to my satements.\n</blockquote></html>\ni was attacking your words, not you. i apologize if you took it as an insult. that wasn't my intention.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nIt is also a prime example of you meassuring with two measures.\n</blockquote></html>\ni still don't understand what this means.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nYou call taxes, which are obviously legal "thievery", however you declare that I may not call getting welfare thievery because it is legal. (feel free to apply any of your pro-discussion terms)\n</blockquote></html>\nno, i never argued that they were ok because they were legal. i've been arguing that they should be used as a democratic reform tool. if the people in germany want welfare, then they should have welfare. stop putting words in my mouth.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nquestioning of my qualification combined with insults.\nis that is not ad hominen, I have must confess I have no idea what is...\n</blockquote></html>\ni didn't question your "qualifications". i merely asserted that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. no argument=no fallacy.\n\n[[did I put that in your mouth???]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 2>>\nah, with single payer the system hardly needs to be changed. everything remains the same except the government pays the bill.\n<<update>>\n[[It's hardly that simple]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\n<html><blockquote>\nI guess only with you high standards of ehtics and debating is calling someone an idiot a critique.\n<<update>>\nMost normal people see it as a sign of desperation.\n</blockquote></html>\nyou looked pretty fucking desperate in the last thread.\n\n[[:D]]
<html><h2>reslox</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 2>>\nDidn't know there was a Zeitgeist 2. The version I saw from a couple of years back focused on religion and war\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 4>>\nwhy don't you fucking read the last thread, motherfucker? you changed the subject several times, resorted to fallacious reasoning, gave up and now you're just pathetically lying about it.\n<<update>>\nhonesty>cuntery\n\n[[as I said]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 7>>\n<html><blockquote>\nand how does that contradict capitalism?\n</blockquote></html>\nbetter wages, insurance, working conditions etc = higher production costs = bad for capitalists.\n<<update>>\n<html><blockquote>\nI am very much of the opinion that unions are a result of capitalism!\n</blockquote></html>\nwell, yes, but only because of how little power a worker has outside of a union. you're essentially arguing against capitalism. if capitalism was so great, then workers wouldn't have to form unions, against the wishes of their bosses.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nThe workers can form them to get a better price (wage, work conditions) for their product (work force).\n</blockquote></html>\nno shit.\n\n[[I think you are missing the whole picture.]]
<html><h2>Eviili</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 19>>\nI dont feel that I need to present anything to a cunt like u anon, I live in socialistic society and im fucking proud of it we live good!!If americans are trying to copy-paste our health care system than its damn sure that its not cause our government would be tyrannical but it works.All Obama wants is to provide a health-care to EVERYONE not just rich ppl.U see the rich cunts in america started panicking cause they wont be able to exploit ur flawed health-care system.And this Jonesy guy is clearly a fucking airhead since he lives with a 20y lag in his head...comunism!?Theres no real communism on this world except on north korea, even in China communism is not the same what it was 20y ago, theire exporting/importing more then ever he should rather just stfu.Ah and not to forget there was this cool dude TITO which name was known all around the world.Everybody instantly knew hes from this yugoslavia...sadly this country doesent exist today but ppl here do say that we lived A LOT BETTER back then than we do now...\n\nand not to forget that movie from Michael Moore was very interesting "sicko".Id recommend u to watch it!\n\n[[think of America as something to strive for, buddy]]
<html><h2>crea</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nNot really, no.\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 9>>\nyou just have to convince me that i'm wrong and that your ideas are better/more ethically consistent/more intellectually consistent. i've had to change my mind A LOT over the last 18 months. i've gone from being a democrat to an independent to a libertarian(capitalist) to a minarchist to an anarcho-capitalist to, finally, an anarcho-syndicalist. i had to be wrong countless times to get to where i'm at and i'm very aware of my fallibility. i'm far more open-minded than you claim i am.\n<<update>>\n[[that may be so.]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 6>>\nhow about you read what I actually wrote, instead of jumping to your own conclusions?\nor do you not know the word "judgement"?\n<<update>>\nbut yeah I should have expected this, after all most of your arguments seem to come from your vivid imagination rather than actual knowledge.\n\n<html><hr></html>\n[[i'm just playing your game]]\n[[perhaps i should make you a shirt]]\n[[which ones?]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nthe corporate media in your homeland.\n<<update>>\n[[why in that context?]]
<html><h2><html><h2>becks</h2></html></h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 5>>\n<html><blockquote>you and i both know that's complete bullshit."</blockquote></html>\n<<update>>\nnot really.\n\ncalling me idiotic, comparing me to a criminal and questioning my famialiarity with the topic along with calling me a cunt was what you did first.\n\nBut I guess you "forgot".\n\n[[quotes]]
<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 31>>\nthe banks didn't get direct tax money, they got post dated checks that tax the economy now and will be paid back with tax money in the future. multiple generations of citizens are expected to pay for the losses of the banks. it doesn't make sense.\n\npeople are still in debt to these banks. nothing has changed on any substantial level. somebody covered in dog shit did a cannonball into a stagnant pond. we haven't applied an equal and opposite force to counter the depression of our economy, we've hurled a giant chunk after it.\n\nbanks got into trouble by loaning money to people who couldn't afford to pay their loans, so they sell those loans to other companies. here's some simple math for the process:\n\ni have a $1,000 debt to some shitty bank. i pay the bank $150 and never make another payment. the bank sells my $850 debt to another bank for $400. that means that so far the loaning bank is $600 upside down on the money they loaned me. the bank that purchased the debt is now $400 upside down. everybody has spent too much money.\n\nimagine banks being given printed money at the promise of future taxation to perpetuate this fallacious economic principle on a massive scale. please explain to me how i'm wrong.\n\nthis stimulus plan was messed up from the beginning by feeding the big banks directly. if you assume the stimulus had to happen, it would have been best if local and regional banks had received the money to purchase debts from the large banks, thus equalizing the distribution of cash throughout the country. banks could have then used the cash as leverage to buy homes and vehicles at a fraction of the cost of the original loan, and entice the public into taking advantage of it by reducing their debt, monthly payments, and interesting.\n\n[[Continued...|the banks didn't get direct tax money 2]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 4>>\n<html><blockquote>\nIn the cases where those coworkers plain suck, fuck everything up so you have to correct their work or where they make mistakes that threaten the health of their colleagues.\n<<update>>\ne.g. I had a colleague once who had two car accidents at work in half a year because he was drunk during the day.\nWE didn't want him to be fired as such, becuase he was good at his actual job. When he wasn't drunk.\nLuckily for us the boss stepped and told him to get rid of his problem or consider himself fired.\n\nThat worked.\n\nI doubt it would have worked if we as his colleagues had told him.\n</blockquote></html>\ni can understand all of this, but it simply is not a sufficient justification for capitalism.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nThe rest of your statements are just your opinions and propaganda, so here:\n:D\n</blockquote></html>\nit's only a matter of time before you :D @ the whole discussion and give up. i told you so.\n\n[[well, of course I would give it up eventually]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 6>>\nwe had that before (earlier this year?) so please let me rephrase.\n<<update>>\na stable economic system, that lasted for at least one generation, so long-term effects are known.\n\nThe system in the German Democratic Republic worked well enough in the first years, too. And went to shit later. How sure can you be the same would not have happened in Spain?\n\n[[it was stable]]
<html><h2>zalu</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 6>>\nI don't know what I am.\n<<update>>\nAnarcho-Capitalism seems to me to be a very good "direction" that should be explored, but that's the problem: social and political philosophy can't get "tried out."\n\nUnder general consideration, I consider myself a libertarian, with most of the details to be quite pedantic.\n\n[[points]]
<html><h2>stunt.us</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nthey run our whole lives anyways. so who gives a fuck.\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 9>>\nthat may be so.\n<<update>>\nBut imo three reasons speak against it:\n\nI find that is harder to convince people of something they once thought themselves as opposed to convincing them of something new.\nI find that people change their mind more readily on their own either by reading or listening. Not in a discussion.\nI find discussions in written form are even worse then spoken ones.\n\n[[your experiences probably do not accurately represent those that others have.]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nyou're pretty fucking delusional.\n<<update>>\n[[It is obvious that you have that opinion]]
<html><h2>cyan</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 9>>\nAmericans whining because their president wants to make sure everyone can get medical care...\n<<update>>\noh my, this MUST be socialism!!!!! - Europeans are fucking laughing their asses off when we watch you guys with random banners protesting in front of the White house.\n\nGo shoot at something u hillbillies... Wait... Is that a banjo i keep hearing?!\n\nYou don't force anything on me, I won't force anything on you.\nYup, America never forced anything on anyone! Korea, Vietnam & Iraq .. whats up?\n\n<html><hr></html>\n[[Good grief, man. He's a troll.]]\n[[newsflash:]]
<html><h2>reslox</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 2>>\nThe only thing of significance you're really saying is that the wealthier one is, the more indebted they have the potential to be.\n<<update>>\n[[I know, it's weird that someone would think like that]]
<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 2>>\nPhilosophies, by definition, are a unifying of separate issues into one compact mode of thought. So yes, idd.\n<<update>>\n[[Glad you admit it then.]]
<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 5>>\nAnd why shouldn't the Government listen? The corporate America is the source of the majority of the Governments revenue (i.e., corporate income taxes). Fuck, Exxon alone paid enough in taxes last year to run all the entitlement, education, and law enforcement programs in the entire state of Vermont for a year.\n\n[[the idea of capitalism]]
<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 31>>\nthe idea of capitalism is that companies give their money to private banks, and those private banks fund new ventures with excess capital. ideally, failing corporations would have to appeal to a bank with a solvent business plan in order to receive further funding, and the bank would have to consider the plan along with all other unrelated expenses to determine if the obvious risk is worth the potential return.\n\n'the government' (whatever that means) should listen to corporations. corporations are comprised of people, and the united states federal government in particular was designed to limit the potential for violations of various civil liberties mutually agreed upon by the people of the country as being fair. what the government should not do, however, is insure businesses against failure by reallocating currency via legislation.\n\ncapitalism is a great system for contributing to social progress insofar as opportunism is limited by the fear of risk. when corporations (banks included) have no calculated risks, there is no speculative reason to operate economically, because economy essentially does not exist.\n\nit's a great idea to have a reservoir in case of drought, but i would argue it's simply not fair to use the reservoir when there is no drought to give liquidity to those who drank for more than the sake of quenching their thirst, especially when the source of the water to fill the reservoir comes from that which was collected by others who were responsible and considered the liberties of others by not overindulging then requesting an arbitrary authority invest itself with the power to take from others so that they may drink again now that they have no water and have finally again become thirsty.\n\n[[I agree. However...]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nwhen?\n<<update>>\n[[beginning of the thread.]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 3>>\n<html><blockquote>\nin that case my attacks we also just objective conclusions.\n</blockquote></html>\nare you implying that i have claimed to be objective?\n<<update>>\n<html><blockquote>\nseriously, though.\n\nWhy would you ask such a question out of the blue?\n</blockquote></html>\nbecause i am seriously concerned.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nNo, if you don't see what the statement implies you are less smart that I think you are.\n</blockquote></html>\ni do, but you're drawing the wrong conclusion.\n\n[[you are concerned about what?]]
<html><h2>reslox</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 18>>\nJust put some numbers in your equation and it's clear \n<<update>>\n90 = 100 * (1 - 0.1)\n\nwith the equation I gave, u deduct the initial deposit from the total to see all the newly created money. Your equation is finding the amount the bank can lend for a single loan application, when we already know what the fractional reserve percentage is :/\n\nRemember, the new money created usually ends up at another bank, who then create up to 90% of the original deposit (which in itself is newly created) as new money and lend that out, and so on and so on, inflating every single deposit by up to a factor of 10 (if the fractional reserve percentage is 10%). The currency needs to be backed by something, for even if you took away money creation from the banks, who's to say the government wouldn't abuse it just the way the banks are?\n\nedit: I'm not dividing the initial deposit, I'm multiplying it. (1 / 0.1) where 0.1 represents the fractional reserve percentage. With 12 percent that part of the equation would read (1 / 0.12)\n\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nit is called trolling :)\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>Thorin</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 4>>\nProtester: You can arrest me as a terrorist without trial, stop me playing poker, control which chemicals I can intake in my own home but you'll never take my guns or make me pay for some black guy's baby to get medical treatment. This MURKA boy!\n<<update>>\n[[a whole political philosophy was just explained]]
<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 2>>\nLike I said before, it has NOTHING to do with deserving. Who deserves what is besides the point.\n<<update>>\n[[If that's not your argument against it, what is?]]
<html><h2>iniiiiiiii</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nOh, if you don't consider them valid I guess they can't be.\n<<update>>\n[[you've got the causation backward.]]
<html><h2>tourist</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nthey came to free your ungrateful ass, at least you could show some respect.\n<<update>>\n[[No, they did not.]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\n<html><blockquote>\nrest of the post: :D\n</blockquote></html>\nthis is going nowhere fast.\n<<update>>\n[[well, I said earlier]]
<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\n???\n<<update>>\n[[the system hardly needs to be changed]]
<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nEviili doesn't understand humour. He'll respond eventually.\n\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>iNkind</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 2>>\nThere is your answer: NO, as long as you are unable to revise your style of discussion it is utterly pointless.\n<<update>>\n[[pretty vague condition]]
<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 6>>\nWhich is more important: life or bankruptcy? Furthermore, if it's life-threatening, a hospital HAS to treat you regardless if you can pay for it. \n<<update>>\nBesides, you're better off stopping the bomb from becoming than trying to stop the explosion from destroying. The less people are made to be responsible for themselves the less they will actually be responsible.\n\n[[Lemme guess, you're a 'libertarian', aren't you?]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 10>>\n<html><blockquote>oh please, not again with this feeble attempt to turn things around. <b>You were the first to start with the personal attacks the last time and you are again this time.</b></blockquote></html>\nyou and i both know that's complete bullshit.\n<<update>>\n<html><blockquote>And of course you deny that and try to blame it on me.</blockquote></html>\nexactly what did i blame on you?????\n\n<html><blockquote>So in fact you are just playing your own game again.</blockquote></html>\nhonestly, you weren't trying to debate in the last thread and in this thread you're just trying to make me look stupid so that you can save face. i really want you to leave me the fuck alone, unless you can actually put some effort into the discussion. i tried calling you an idiot over and over, WHICH YOU ARE, but you don't fucking get it. that's the game i'm playing.\n\n<html><blockquote>I am also very intrigued how constant name-calling fits in with your worker cooperation and mutual aid concept.</blockquote></html>\nyea, it didn't work too well.\n\n<html><blockquote>I suppose it would turn into something like this:<br />\n"I say, we are all in this together and work together as a team of eqauls. And if you don't agree with my opinion how to run things, I'll fuck you up."</blockquote></html>\n\n[[I guess you 'forgot']]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 6>>\n<html><blockquote>\nWhy would you want to make a classfight out of this?\n</blockquote></html>\ni'm not TRYING to make it that way.\n<<update>>\n<html><blockquote>\nI am not anti lower class at all.\n</blockquote></html>\ni'm not saying you are.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nBut I don't consider the people who do that part of the lower class. The stereotype of a lower class is for me someone who works badly paid jobs or at least wants to work.\n</blockquote></html>\ni kind of see it as: there are those of us who are forced to work to survive and those who aren't.(not talking about people on welfare)\n\n<html><blockquote>\nJust like you probably won't consider a rich person who gives everything he owns away to safe the company and with is the work place a prototype of the "rich class" do you?\n</blockquote></html>\ni kind of take the marxist pov on this. you know, the proletariat/bourgeoisie dichotomy?\n\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 12>>\nHis materialism was implicit in what he describes as a dream (probably the way he sees it, it is a dream to him), it goes without saying. He speaks of classes, of transcending them, for what are classes defined as if not by the accumulated material wealth of people?\n<<update>>\nI agree on your posts about the health care situation in the US. \n\nIf his statements about luxury and the american dream would have first included those who find happiness in life, it would've been a much better (and less materialistic answer). \n\nFor it is said there are two common ways to become materially rich: 1) by making a lot of money or 2) by not spending a lot of money. But it is richness in life that is the true wealth of man.\n\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]
<html><h2>KitesAreFun</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 2>>\nI've read it's a lot closer to fifteen million for people that actually CAN NOT get Health Insurance.\n<<update>>\n[[Perhaps.]]
<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 7>>\nI don't think you're going to waste your time either. You clearly don't have any ground to stand on -- the cliches and platitudes on which your "thought" is based don't do well enough against actual thought based on real knowledge and intellect (e.g., like the logic that becks just rubbed off on your face).\n<<update>>\nbecks just owned you. Just move on with your life... you'll get over it eventually after the rage has subsided.\n\n<html><hr></html>\n[[ahahahaha]]\n[[Not really, no.]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 11>>\n<html><blockquote>\nI mean you don't even seem to realize that an economic system is very complex so it not only can but must be examined from very different angles.\n</blockquote></html>\nwhat the fuck are you talking about? "very complex" is a nothing but a "subjective judgment", as you'd say, and the complexity of the orientation of people and capital, in a given economic system, have absolutely nothing to do with what we were debating in the previous thread.\n<<update>>\n<html><blockquote>\nYou simply declared that was fallacious, without any reasoning to back you subjective judgement.</blockquote></html>\ni did notify you of the names of the many fallacies you used, though. maybe you should read their definitions.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nergo: discussions of complex topics with you are pointless.\n</blockquote></html>\nit's pointless because your motivation is to make me look stupid and mine is to debate. there's a conflict of interest for you. you know if i started debating you seriously you'd just bitch out, like the last thread.\n\n[[I think it's highly doubtful that calling the topic complex is subjective]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nyou don't know what socialism is.\n<<update>>\n<html><hr></html>\n[[you don't know what socialism can be]]\n[[True socialism can only exist with utmost liberty]]
<html><h2>hnns</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 39>>\nYour stance has everything to do with who you consider worthy of health care. Those, who as you have put it, a) are inept, b) have poor self management skills, c) don't eat their vegetables - have themselves to blame. Ergo; deserving of the consequences.\n<<update>>\nSo you think that the solution to your health care dilemma is not fixing the system itself but to increase awareness and preventiveness in eating right, exercising and taking of yourself.\n\nThat's generally sound advice. But are there any of your experts naive enough to think this is a practical solution to your dilemma that is probably the worst health care system in the western world in the richest country in the western world? Of course not, that would be ludicrous. In any case I'd like to see those experts credentials. My experts say that even in some bizarro fantasy world where that sort of thing would be efficient it doesn't tackle the numerous conditions and accidents that can occur in a lifespan that require medical assistance and have absolutely nothing to do with negligence. But you don't mention that. So that's not really what you're saying, or I hope it isn't unless you're trolling me big time.\n\nYou feel the problem is with the citizens and not the system; citizens have a responsibility to take care of themselves and there shouldn't be any meddling from the government to assist them if need be. Unless they've earned it by having money of course. According to your last paragraph that would lead to a less than ideal society. I think you're being overly paranoid, look at countries that have free health insurance. Have those countries succumbed to nations of lazy bums with bad standards? Of course not. Ridicilous.\n\nBasically you put the entire blame on the people who are too incompetent to take care of themselves and no blame at all on the government or the insurance companies. What a wonderful, obedient citizen.\n<html><blockquote>\nmedical attention (which is available equally to all people -- it is illegal for a hospital to turn away someone that needs life-saving medical attention).\n</blockquote></html>\nFirst you make the assertion that medical attention is equally available to all people, as reasoning you explain that it is illegal for hospitals to turn anyone away that needs life-saving medical attention. I'm too tired to look up what fallacy you're using.\n\n<html><hr></html>\n[[The last part is factual]]\n[[Exactly.]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 16>>\n<html><blockquote>\never consider that you might actually be stupid?\n</blockquote></html>\nyes, several times. And of course I do make mistakes. But when I see how many problems other people have and how often they are wrong (objectively, not subjectively) I know I am not.\n<<update>>\n<html><blockquote>\nprobably because you're not nearly as inflammatory or provocative irl.</blockquote></html>\nfor one thing, in discussions I behave very much the same. I have had several friendly discussion on here as well as in real life. But if someone simply keeps brushing away my arguments and then questions my knowledge I will respond very clearly (provocative if you want). The difference is that in discussions in real life are not in written form and therefore won't be brushed away that easily.\n\nSo, I have to react like that a lot less.\n\nAlso, I didn't actually mean the "idiot" calling, but the stupid. Because, what I do get are comments like "why the hell do you know all that..." etc. and people asking my for advice on various topic.\n\nrest of the post: :D\n\n[[this is going nowhere fast.]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\n<html><blockquote>So, in effect it is you who insults them for claiming you somehow speak for them. That is not so.\n<<update>>\nBut honestly, everyone who works and looks around with open eyes will tell you the same.</blockquote></html>\nfucking idiot.\n\n[[I see, out of actual arguments again]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 3>>\ni'm sure you think people are too stupid to have any control over their lives, fucking douche. i don't need you to convince me any further of how much you hate people.\n<<update>>\n[[nothing to do with stupid.]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 13>>\njust to pick one:\n<<update>>\n<html><blockquote>\nI also gave examples of benefits of capitalism to show that calling it all bad is stupid, yes.\nyeah, the whole "efficiency" argument which is more than debunked.\n</blockquote></html>\nthat is a good example of your understanding of debate. You don't bother to think about what someone is actually saying, you just assume what you think or have read somewhere is correct.\n\nWhenever I do something even remotely similar (complexity of economic systems) you complain.\n\nYou are measuring with two measures.\n\nJust for the factual basis. Efficiency is a relative measurement. Therefore capitalism will need to be compared to an existing system to be declared more, less or equally efficient.\n\nAny comparison to a theoretical system is flawed from the beginning. \n\nBut discussing that would be an actual discussing, therefore a pointless endeavor.\n\n[[you are sucking two dicks.]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 3>>\n<html><blockquote>\nYou were the first to start with the personal attacks the last time and you are again this time.\n<<update>>\nif you had ever actually worked and met your average worker, you would soon realize that that is the dumbest shit ever\n</blockquote></html>\nhere, you're insulting me, every working class person and the labor movement that has been going on for the last century and a half. now fuck off.\n\n[[well, have you ever worked a real job?]]
<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nidd\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nI edited it.\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 17>>\nAhaha, how laughable. Your arguments are reduced to "insults" when you have nothing left to say to defend your arguments (or whatever consists of what little "argument" you had). Pathetic. And it's quite common on these forums but you're especially inept.\n<<update>>\nOpen your eyes, read a fucken book. Better yet, read some fucken philosophy. Read some Hobbes, Locke, Spinoza, Russell, read some history surrounding both the American AND French Revolutions and then come back here see what you think of lolograde's posts (and I'd be entirely impressed by your denseness if you could still hold your current opinions). If you had the slightest wit about the different forms of government, their intellectual developes in history, and their main components of logic, you'd see exactly where the arguments are and wouldn't have people spoonfeeding you information on the net.\n\nRight now you just look like an ignorant fucktard without a clue as to what, exactly, your opinions even are.\n\n[[please don't make me explain]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\n<html><blockquote>\nbecause i am seriously concerned.\n</blockquote></html>\nabout what?\n<<update>>\n[[the corporate media]]
<html><h2>hnns</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 8>>\ndaryl, please don't make me explain how much of a hypocrite you are.\n<<update>>\nno amount of philosophers will make me change my mind about lolograde's stance on who "deserves" health care and who doesn't. i have no interest in conversing with someone like that. i realize you're way too thick and self-centered in your own little world to understand that. maybe if you actually lived a life that included interacting with real people you would, as it is you're too afraid.\n\n[[It's got nothing to do with deserving]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 38>>\nseems like you are wasting your time anyway. Both with commenting here, calling me neames, etc and also with all your reasearch.\n<<update>>\nNo, the end of the line for me is that you never accepted or understood(?) all the examples and arguments I stated about benefits of capitalism and tried to see them as my opinion or simply irrelevant. Note: You cannot claim a fallacy, on the grounds that you diagree.\n\nNo, if you want to see someone who is so obsessed with his own opinion the he cannot even look at arguments in an unbiased way, you just need to look into a mirror.\n\nBecause ultimately the thing you do not see is, that is is always so much easier to bitch about the flaws of an exisiting system then about an theoretical system that mostly consists of general approaches and lack solutions for problems on the lowest level.\n\nBecause there is one premise in all those idealistic systems, which sound awesome in theory. That humans are altruistic or at the very least rational beings, with the ability to make perfect long-term decisions for the greater good of all. Which is something that research has proven wrong countless times, see "The experiment" for example.\nAnother indication is the fact that if you look at it, capitalism does give everyone the opportunity to be altruistic and to make decisions that help everyone. It's just that people don't use them, but rather look for their own benefit. \n\nWhich finally leads us back to people who decide freely to quit working and get welfare. They do not aid the society in any way and do not contribute to the greater good. \nAnd as long as there are people who think it is ok to benefit from the others they will destroy any system based on cooperation and mutual aid.\n\nAnd since we now reached the same point where our two, divided, discussions started (although you have failed to contribute long ago), I will end my participation here (and just put a ":D" whenver yo write a funny again.)\n\np.s.: I will refrain from putting a childish insult, at the end, because I think everyone who reads your posts will form a personal opinion.\n\n<html><hr></html>\n[[answer the fucking question.]]\n[[i'm pretty fucking stupid for wasting hours and hours of my time on someone like you]]
<html><h2>reslox</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nyou haven't taken in a single word that he's said\n<<update>>\n[[I can't figure out if he's trolling]]
<html><h2>cyan</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 2>>\nI know hes trollin'\n\nBut i can't take anymore Americans and their "we are gods" bullshit.\n<<update>>\n[[Just ignore them.]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html> \n<<set $score = $score + 3>>\nI guess only with you high standards of ehtics and debating is calling someone an idiot a critique.\n<<update>>\nMost normal people see it as a sign of desperation.\n\n<html><hr></html>\n[[read what you said.]]\n[[you looked pretty fucking desperate]]
<html><h2>tbone</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nSigh. I hope there won't be another response.\n\n[[Eviili doesn't understand humour]]
<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 5>>\nGood grief, man. He's a troll. Can't believe you're taking his post seriously...\n<<update>>\nAnd on the health care reforms in the US, I believe it's more or less about sticking to the founding philosophy (which has worked well enough), that the government should have a limited role in managing the lives of the citizens.\n\n<html><hr></html>\n[[I know hes trollin']]\n[[This MURKA boy!]]\n[[an agrarian society is a good model]]\n[[Personally I wouldn't have providing all 300M citizens basic health care excluded from the limited role government should have towards their citizens]]\n[[who gives a fuck.]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nyes or no?\n<<update>>\n[[There is your answer]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 2>>\nI have replied to most of those statements before.\nI will do it not again.\n<<update>>\n[[sounds like someones /raqequitting]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n\nthe business lobby is strong in this one :(
azmo\n\nJonesy is.
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n\nread what you said. oh, that's right. you don't listen to people who disagree with you.\n<<update>>\n[[how about you read what I actually wrote]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 5>>\nwell, of course I would give it up eventually. I could have told you that from the very beginning.\n<<update>>\nThe chance of you ever either changing your opinion or stopping replying are next to zero, because you are after all a fanatic.\n\n[[you just have to convince me]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\ni.e., you're not ever going to accept any critiques, fuckface.\n<<update>>\n[[I guess only with you high standards of ehtics and debating is calling someone an idiot a critique.]]\n\n
<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 2>>\nyou don't know what socialism can be. don't be such a condescending adherent to temporally sensitive ideas.\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 5>>\nI did not mean it as a condition I am asking you to amend, but rather a conclusion.\n<<update>>\nSo to answer your second question, this thread and more half of the old thread, more exactly the point where you decided you would exclude certain arguments based solely on your subjective judgement.\n\n[[why don't you fucking read the last thread]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n\nWhile I do think Gysi is a big populist and also should make the funding of his party public (former SED property), labelling him a GDR politician does give a wrong message.\n\nThe only thing I find interesting about this year's vote is if for some mistake the pirates get 5% and whether that will make the bigger parties move a little more.\n\nWell of course in the long run I am hoping we won't have black-yellow. But then again I guess I would be one of those who would profit from the lower income tax and no minimum wage they advertise.\n\nBut of course that will fuck Germany's finance up even more and their lobbying for Atomic power without ever suggesting reliable solutions for storage might just lead to me leaving this country...\n\n[[No minimum wage?]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 13>>\nwell, have you ever worked a real job?\n<<update>>\nIf not, then that is no insult.\n\nBut honestly, everyone who works and looks around with open eyes will tell you the same.\n\nKinda egocentric to think you speak for all the workers and the labor movement, don't you agree? Especially, since labor movement was always about improving the life of workers within the existing system. Since yo are so keen on wiki and internet articles, here's a quote for you: "An active and free labour movement is considered by many to be an important element in maintaining democracy and for economic development."\nSo, in effect it is you who insults them for claiming you somehow speak for them. That is not so.\n\n<html><hr></html>\n[[fucking idiot.]]\n[[you set up a dichotomy]]
<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 18>>\nI agree. However, I believe the real problem is that "too big to fail" is a true feature of the largest corporations. AIG, being a counterparty to so many massive credit-default swaps, was literally the hinge at which trillions of $$$ rested.\n\nCompanies shouldn't be bailed out at the expense at the tax-payer, HOWEVER, the government shouldn't cut of it's nose to spite it's face. In this regard, AIG was a required bailout, which, otherwise, would have deftly crippled the economy and sent hundreds of large companies and banks into bankruptcy overnight otherwise. And don't think that the financial industry hasn't learned a lesson here: once bitten, twice shy.\n\nThe regulators need to look towards those companies that are "too large to fail" that are still alive right now and start talking about breaking them up like AT&T into the RBOCs in '84. (CitiGroup, Bank of America, CountryWide come to mind).\n\n"Economies of Scale" be damned. Besides, the added competition will help drive innovation.\n\n[[the banks didn't get direct tax money]]
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<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nbeginning of the thread.\n<<update>>\n[[did i not get the job done?]]
<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nThe only Americans that say that are trolls. Just ignore them.\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 6>>\nyeh awesome, that makes everyone get to know each other.\nnot.\n<<update>>\nThere will still be resentiments between the communities. \nEspecially if there are problems, e.g. shortage of food or just a certain medicine.\n\nThere will also be many problem with envy, if one community works better than the other.\n\n[[and they do in the modern capitalist world?]]
<html><h2>mammon</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 3>>\nIf I have to choose between Corporations and Government, I end up choosing the lesser evil - Government. I prefer one person - one vote over one dollar - one vote.\n\n[[but a corporation only asks for your money]]\n[[I love mankind]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 11>>\naww, you are cute when raging. Just like a little kid.\nCome to think of that kids also have very simplistic and "interesting" views of the world. But if you behave from now on I promise you a nice warm cocoa before bed time <3\n<<update>>\nSeriously though, I've been called an idiot here countless times, surprisingly always by raged people who disagree with me.\n\nCan't remeber if that ever happened to me in real life, though. Usually the opposite.\n\nSo, I think I will let you know that the only time, I will accept someone's judgement about me, including calling me an idiot, is when they are a) not raged b) not disagreeing.\n\n<html><hr></html>\n[[i.e.]]\n[[who said i was raging?]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 5>>\nin that case my attacks we also just objective conclusions.\n<<update>>\nseriously, though.\n\nWhy would you ask such a question out of the blue?\nNo, if you don't see what the statement implies you are less smart that I think you are.\n\n[[are you implying that i have claimed to be objective?]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 20>>\n<html><blockquote>\nbecause you fucking suck ass at it.\n</blockquote></html>\nso let me get this straight:\n\nFirst you get the impression I am trying to make you personally look stupid.\n\nThen you decide that I suck at that, which is kinda weird, since I never did it in the first place.\n\nThen you decide to make a fool out of yourself.\n\nAnd then you complain about me being worse at making you look stupid than you?\n\nO.o\n\nAlso, I can't seem to find the old thread so no quote atm. Will provide if you find it.\n\nnwm, you found it.\n<<update>>\nhere are some quotes from there:\n<html><blockquote>\nit's like you got your debating "skills" from the white house. you assert the opposite and accuse others of your crimes.\n</blockquote></html>\nhere you are comparing me to a criminal.\n<html><blockquote>\nbut it's idiotic to equate legally receiving welfare, which is a DEMOCRATIC reform policy in germany, with thievery.\n</blockquote></html>\none ov several occasions where you use idiotic and similar words in reply to my satements.\n\nIt is also a prime example of you meassuring with two measures. \n\nYou call taxes, which are obviously legal "thievery", however you declare that I may not call getting welfare thievery because it is legal. (feel free to apply any of your pro-discussion terms)\n<html><blockquote>\nyou're treading on territory that you're not familiar with and are trying way too hard to save face. it's ok to say, "i don't know," or, "i could be wrong." no one will give a shit and it's far more civil to do so than to be a complete cunt about it.\n</blockquote></html>\nquestioning of my qualification combined with insults.\nis that is not ad hominen, I have must confess I have no idea what is...\n\n<html><hr></html>\n[[don't see a contradiction]]\n[[don't put words in my mouth.]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 5>>\nI don't see where he says that the only thing worthwhile is wealth?\n<<update>>\nYeah, he does misunderstand the American Dream as in only using the most popular interpretation (dishwasher -> millionaire, etc.) but still providing health care to everyone is unlikely to make people that much richer...\n\n[[His materialism was implicit]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nit is obvious that you're a fucking idiot.\n<<update>>\n[[aww, you are cute when raging.]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 7>>\nall the group you named are too small, imo.\n<<update>>\nI believe it's commen sense that a community works the best as long as everyone knows each other. But at some point the group is too big for that and that is when you will get more and more problems.\n\nAlso I believe listing Kibbutz is not correct, because I don't think they adhere to all your principles. Imagine asking a Palestinean to move in with them.\n\n<html><hr></html>\n[[it's mostly pre-1948]]\n[[federated communities, bruh.]]
<html><h2>Ignignokt</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nYes because an agrarian society is a good model for the modern times.\n<<update>>\n[[I love it]]
<html><h2>crea</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 4>>\nI know, it's weird that someone would think like that. I heard it in an interview with some economics professor or whatever about the US, he then threatened to throw the interviewer out the window, because he kept asking the question how that makes sense xD\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>[mash]</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nbe careful. he's the king of all wikipedia intellectuals.\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 5>>\nuhm, you didn't make it clear which type of Kibbutz you mean?\nespecially, since you used present tense, not "adhered", it certainly seemed like you were talking about existing types.\n<<update>>\nBut to tell the truth, I am not surprised you would try to blame a mistake on me...\n\n[[poor victim, becks]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 2>>\n<html><blockquote>\nand if you had ever actually worked and met your average worker, you would soon realize that that is the dumbest shit ever :D\n<<update>>\nBut go on, believe in your dream, not like it's ever gonna happen.\n</blockquote></html>\nunionization/democratization of the workplace has lead to a very large increase in workers' rights and living conditions.\n\n[[and how does that contradict capitalism?]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 24>>\n<html><blockquote>\nno, I think you are missing the whole picture.\n\nIn a capitalistic system, every single person is a capitalist.\n</blockquote></html>\nthe ideals of some of the people who are participating in the system don't have anything to do with the system itself. i'm a perfect example. i doubt many slaves were proponents of feudalism.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nTherefore the conclusion you have above should be:\n\nbad for factory owners. (Even though the long term effect is that if the broad mass has money to spend that is actually also good for factory. Sadly, many managers are unable to look far enough for that).\n</blockquote></html>\nfactory owner = capitalist, in this context.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nThe workers are not poerless in capitalism, on the one hand because they have the ability to form Unions.\n</blockquote></html>\nnot always. but, no, you have to realize that a single worker has nearly no say when he is not a part of a union.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nOn the other hand, people can leave on company and work for another where the conditions are better.\n</blockquote></html>\nfrom one end of the plantation to another.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nIf has happened many times that a competitor had to leave a market because one company bought of all their skilled employees.\n</blockquote></html>\nis there an attempt at justifying wage slavery here?\n\n<html><blockquote>\nAdditionally, capitalism offers something else. The boss, as "the guy up there" offers a good figure the lower workers can unite against, forming more solidarity. But it also gives one person the ability to fire bad personel.\n</blockquote></html>\ndon't need a boss to have solidarity or direction.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nAnd there simply are people who are unable to do their jobs and sometimes even pose a danger to their colleagues.\n</blockquote></html>\ni don't disagree.\n<<update>>\n<html><blockquote>\nHowever, colleagues would never want to be the asshole to fire one of their own.\n</blockquote></html>\nwait for it..\n\n<html><blockquote>\nSo they are actually glad the boss will take the blame.\n</blockquote></html>\nPOW! lol, i don't think any rational person wants their coworker, who wants to work and have food to eat, to get fired. is this really your strongest argument for the justification of exploitative use of property?\n\n"because the boss relieves his slaves of the stress of having to fire workers, it is justified that he hog the means of production all to himself."\n\nplease tell me this is not what you're trying to argue, because if it is it's completely retarded.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nNote, I am not defending all layoff everywhere. But many are actually needed, see the enourmous waste of ressources in car production.\n</blockquote></html>\nwell, in a socialist workplace, the workers would democratically decide, within their council, to "let go" one of the workers, for safety reason or w/e.\n\n[[yeah they do.]]
<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 67>>\nOther terms that are commonly associated with currency valuation, from an economics point of view, is the "money multiplier" effect that banks have with cash monies (and this may have also been what you were referring to???). For instance, a person deposits $10,000 with a bank. The bank, in order to make profit, turns around and loans $5,000 to one person and $2,000 to another person. However, the originating depositor is still entitled to his $10,000 while $5,000, this means that now $17,000 is essentially in "circulation" without the actual act of printing of the money. This is the benefit of having a banking system and why all nations on the planet utilize the function benefits of a banking system. However, it has not, in a very large economy, any effect of devaluing and appreciating the value of a currency.\n<<update>>\nHowever, the real determinants of the "value" of a currency doesn't necessarily rely so heavily on the specific amount of physical monies in circulation as it does with the ebb and flow of constituents of the value of things (mostly commodities such as energy & food -- oil, natural gas, ethanol, grain, wheat, sugar --. these things being traded on open commodities markets). Typically what is done, to determine the value of a currency (and more importantly, its change over time), is to select a "basket" of goods and services that the average person my purchase. \n\nIt's been years since I've kept up with what is included in these general economic baskets. But they mostly follow common goods and services, which, like all things in basic economics, depends on supply and demand. When the oil prices around the world drove upward in the last decade, so did the cost of living (i.e., the prices of many goods and services depending on the value of oil in their "value stream" --> that is, the constituents that go into the inputs, the process of making a good/service, of the outputs, the end product/service). \n\nNow, please, spare this thread some dignity and refrain from displaying how openly ignorant you are to everyone.\n\n[[That's a very clumsy account of the fractional reserve system.]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 4>>\n<html><blockquote>\nnothing to do with stupid.\n</blockquote></html>\nwhy don't you think workers should have any control?\n<<update>>\n<html><blockquote>\nBut of course you always jump to a conclusion and add an insult.\n</blockquote></html>\npretty unique to this thread, tbh.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nMan, I really have to learn that debate and ethics stuff from you...\n</blockquote></html>\nyou could easily just go to fucking wiki.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nCome on now, claim once more that I am going straight for the ad hominem again, while you just deliver solid arguments.\n</blockquote></html>\ntrust me, i will the next time i see you do it.\n\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>azmo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 10>>\nPlease, just because 1/100000 manage that whole american dream thing some seem to have in such high esteem it doesnt mean that rising from lower class to upper class is a "real" possibility for a normal person. \n<<update>>\nIts sickening how people have been made to believe its up to every individual wether they succeed in life or not, and not 99% dependent on which class they are born into.\n\nOn a side note that I guess can be said about the entire west, how much of USAs luxury would still be there without the exploatation of the 3rd world?\n\nEdit: removed the HAHAHAHAH ;)\n\n[[What is the American dream?]]
<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nyour informed argument was well presented, sir.\n\n[[I dont feel that I need to present anything to a cunt like u]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 25>>\n<html><blockquote>\nbetter wages, insurance, working conditions etc = higher production costs = bad for capitalists.\n<<update>>\nwell, yes, but only because of how little power a worker has outside of a union. you're essentially arguing against capitalism. if capitalism was so great, then workers wouldn't have to form unions, against the wishes of their bosses.</blockquote></html>\nno, I think you are missing the whole picture.\n\nIn a capitalistic system, every single person is a capitalist. Therefore the conclusion you have above should be:\n\nbad for factory owners. (Even though the long term effect is that if the broad mass has money to spend that is actually also good for factory. Sadly, many managers are unable to look far enough for that). \n\nThe workers are not poerless in capitalism, on the one hand because they have the ability to form Unions.\n\nOn the other hand, people can leave on company and work for another where the conditions are better. \nIf has happened many times that a competitor had to leave a market because one company bought of all their skilled employees.\n\nAdditionally, capitalism offers something else. The boss, as "the guy up there" offers a good figure the lower workers can unite against, forming more solidarity. But it also gives one person the ability to fire bad personel.\nAnd there simply are people who are unable to do their jobs and sometimes even pose a danger to their colleagues. However, colleagues would never want to be the asshole to fire one of their own. So they are actually glad the boss will take the blame... Note, I am not defending all layoff everywhere. But many are actually needed, see the enourmous waste of ressources in car production.\n\n[[i doubt many slaves were proponents of feudalism.]]
<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 11>>\nWhat is the American dream? Is it having a nice house and a nice car? Is it being extremely wealthy? Or is it having a great family and friends? Is it being happy?\n<<update>>\nThe American Dream isn't a singular, definable goal. It is the liberty of each person to find their own dream. Moreover, some dreams are a process and not a destination. However, liberty means opportunity... it doesn't mean that your dream should be handed to you on a silver platter. If it's worth attaining, than it's worth working for.\n\nFunny that a Swede would be so overtly materialistic that he'd think the only thing worthwhile in life is wealth.\n\n<html><hr></html>\n[[I don't see where he says that]]\n[[<3]]\n[[I'm sure you know quite many bums]]
<html><h2>Thorin</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nYes because a whole political philosophy can be defined by one domestic issue.\n<<update>>\n<html><hr></html>\n[[Philosophies, by definition]]\n[[it's quite easy.]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nobviously you will find others with other experiences...\n<<update>>\n[[maybe, but i've got my own opinions on that.]]
<html><h2>hnns</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nreally dude? i guess there's one jamerio in each country.\n<<update>>\n[[wish to comment on anything I said?]]
<html><h2>deith</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nhahaha, I love mankind !\n\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 15>>\n<html><blockquote>\ngiven the enourmous amounts of literature about the facettes of economic systems, I think it's highly doubtful that calling the topic complex is subjective.\n</blockquote></html>\nargumentum ad populum/appeal to authority. apply the same reasoning to logical debate. you're being totally hypocritical.\n<<update>>\n<html><blockquote>\nI also doubt that anyone whose articles oyu have read would cliam the subject is trivial.\n</blockquote></html>\nsaying that someone doesn't realize how complex something is IS TRIVIAL.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nYeah, talking about persons getting money from welfare has nothing to with people and capital...\n</blockquote></html>\nalso, ethical validity of wage slavery and capitalism.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nabout the fallcies you wanted to see, it seems very much like you read an article (wiki maybe?) about arguments and simply thought you could use some of the definitions.\n</blockquote></html>\na bit more than that. please read the definitions sometime.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nHowever, you completely missed the part where you have to give reasons for your opinion and resulting classification.\n</blockquote></html>\ni wouldn't have to if you'd read the fucking definitions.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nIf I go ahead and declare you have the knowledge of a schoolkid and add a definition of schoolkid, you would demand that I give reasons for that, wouldn't you?\n</blockquote></html>\ni'd just ignore it like any other insult.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nAgain, you try to be competitor and judge in one person. That is never possible.\n</blockquote></html>\nis this from babelfish? i don't fucking understand.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nThat behavious actually becomes most obvious (as I said several times now), where you question my qualification, which I responded to with listing my eduction and questioning whether you had the qualification to judge mine.\n</blockquote></html>\nwhat the fuck are you talking about?\n\n<html><blockquote>\nYou then concluded that my response was a personal attack, while your preceding judgement of me wasn't.\n</blockquote></html>\nneed logs.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nYou even admitted that your ethics were subjective, but still insist that you are capable to judge objectively.\n</blockquote></html>\nneed logs.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nMy motiviation was to show that giving welfare to people who have the chance to get work but don't is stupid, yes.\n</blockquote></html>\nbut letting your boss steal from you and benefit from your creativity isn't?\n\n<html><blockquote>\nI also had the motivation to show that the economic system you propose is too idealistic und unrealistic and also that I think your view is too one-sided (which I do think you'd agree would be stupid), yes.\n</blockquote></html>\nwhat's wrong with idealism and how is it unrealistic?\n\n<html><blockquote>\nI also gave examples of benefits of capitalism to show that calling it all bad is stupid, yes.\n</blockquote></html>\nyeah, the whole "efficiency" argument which is more than debunked.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nI never called you personally stupid, that is something you would do.\n</blockquote></html>\ndid i say you did?\n\n<html><blockquote>\nIronically, I think in this thread you did a way better job at making you look stupid than I could have ever done.\n</blockquote></html>\nbecause you fucking suck ass at it.\n\n<html><hr></html>\n[[just to pick one:]]\n[[so let me get this straight:]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 7>>\nas I said "as long as".\n<<update>>\nI mean you don't even seem to realize that an economic system is very complex so it not only can but must be examined from very different angles. Which I did.\nYou simply declared that was fallacious, without any reasoning to back you subjective judgement.\n\nergo: discussions of complex topics with you are pointless.\n\n[[what the fuck are you talking about?]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n\nyeah, the good experience other European countries made with a minimum wage, e.g. no rise in unemployment, have been brought up several times.\n\nThe conservatives and "liberals" and their lobby-buddies brush them away, at state that it's not proven the same will be true for Germany.\n\nWe call the advice-resitant or just idiotic.\n\nOnly thing more idiotic is that so many voters actually believe that crap...\n\n[[I don't think a single MP or political party is against it here anymore]]
<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 19>>\nWell gee whiz. You must of researched before following up to my response! I'm proud I had such an effect with my response that you would do such a thing! \n<<update>>\nHowever, I would like to know where exactly you read that the multiplier effect devalues a currency? \n\n...and since the only thing that gives the currency value is how abundant or scarce it is...\nThis is the crux of your argument and where a significant error is made in your understanding of fiat currencies.\n\nSupply and demand DO NOT have the same effect on the purchasing power of currency as it does with the interest earned on a currency (and again, this is based on the monetary policies of the Federal Reserve bank and open market activities). And interest rates, themselves, are relative (low savings rates = low borrowing rates / cost of capital is always relative to the market). This is NOT the purchasing power of the average person's dollar. Currency is not a commodity that can be "consumed" and "depleted". It is exchanged for a good/service that can be consumed/depleted.\n\n[[Your clumsy example of the fractional reserve system shows you hashed together a response after a few hours reading]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nit was a serious question.\n<<update>>\n[[in that case]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nsounds like someones /raqequitting\n<<update>>\n[[if you want to call it that, go ahead.]]
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<html><h2>reslox</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 10>>\nYou honestly want to believe I didn't know what I was talking about before you responded? My original response was to lolograde, and his "WE ARE FREEE!! STARS AND STRIPES!!!" rhetoric. Your clumsy example of the fractional reserve system shows you hashed together a response after a few hours reading. That you would infer all of that on to me is annoying.\n<<update>>\n>> Currency is not a commodity that can be "consumed" and "depleted"\n\nWhen a bank loan is paid back, it reduces the money supply by the amount of the principal loan. You need to hit the books again. Preferably with your head\n\n[[be careful.]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 3>>\ndo you really want me to waste my time responding seriously, again? you're just going to bitch out just like the last thread. do you really want me to waste my fucking time with you?\n<<update>>\n<html><hr></html>\n[[seems like you are wasting your time anyway]]\n[[I don't think you're going to waste your time either.]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 4>>\nand how does that contradict capitalism?\n<<update>>\nI am very much of the opinion that unions are a result of capitalism! The workers can form them to get a better price (wage, work conditions) for their product (work force).\n\n[[better wages, insurance, working conditions etc]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 5>>\n<html><blockquote>\nthe core principle of socialism is that workers control the means of production.\n</blockquote></html>\nand if you had ever actually worked and met your average worker, you would soon realize that that is the dumbest shit ever :D\n<<update>>\nBut go on, believe in your dream, not like it's ever gonna happen.\n\n<html><hr></html>\n[[fucking douche]]\n[[unionization/democratization of the workplace]]
<html><h2>mkeiy</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 9>>\n<html><blockquote>\nThe solution isn't to be found in forcing a whole reform on a whole system due to negligence of one group of people.\n</blockquote></html>\nThat's is true, paternalism sucks, especially in a country like yours. But still it would be naive of you to deny the importance of health care.\n<<update>>\nYou might be seduced by the present like a lot of people but ensuring that your population is a healthy population should be at the highest priority of any modernised society. And yours is very much under par in that department.\n\nHealth, and the privileges of having it and obtaining it, should be a social utility open to the entire population, regardless of economic contribution.\n\n[[Its sickening how people have been made to believe]]
<html><h2>cyan</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 4>>\nbecause ur one out of 3 countries on planet earth that actually uses billions of tax dollars on your military...\n<<update>>\nand still the chinese would kick your ass if it came down to it.\n\nmassive army > free medical care?\n\n<html><hr></html>\n[[I don't think Croatia had even one billion :P]]\n[[did free healthcare kill the nazis?]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 11>>\n<html><blockquote>\nyour crimes.\n</blockquote></html>\ndid I put that in your mouth???\n<<update>>\n<html><blockquote>\ni still don't understand what this means.\n</blockquote></html>\ncomes from a German idiom. In this case it means that you look at your own statements in a different way that at mine.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nstop putting words in my mouth.\n</blockquote></html>\nhow about you stop accusing me of that?\n\nYou called taxes stealing.\nI called taking welfare without need stealing.\nYou said I may not call accepting welfare thievery because it is legal.\n\nI said wtf?\n\n<html><blockquote>\ni didn't question your "qualifications". i merely asserted that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. no argument=no fallacy.\n</blockquote></html>\ncorrect me if am wrong, but isn't saying someone doesn't know what he is talking about synomynous with saying they aren't qualified?\n\nAnd even if it isn't, isn't saying "You don't know what the fuck you are talking about" a personal attack?\n\n[[it was analogously figurative]]
<html><h2>zalu</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 2>>\n"True" socialism can only exist with utmost liberty.\n<<update>>\nBut yeah, socialism has many varieties.\n\n[[the main groups are state socialism and libertarian socialism]]
<html><h2>Liam</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 3>>\nJust because in Russia you guys don't have real health care like we do in America doesn't mean you should get angry at us, think of America as something to strive for, buddy.\n\n[[Were not the ones trying to change our system]]
<html><h2>cyan</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nStop replying when you know u have been DOMINATED.\n<<update>>\n[[sure]]
<html><h2>loveless</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 2>>\nperhaps i should make you a shirt that says "my blood type is oppression" and send it to you\n<<update>>\n[[Only if you accept my T-Shirt]]
<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 24>>\ni think this would have occurred naturally if the large banks had been left to their own devices. they would have actually started to flounder and we probably would have seen insanely low prices on a lot of debt as the banks realized how serious the issue is. one big one would have started selling lower than the others, then another, then another, until the market was saturated with low cost debts to be purchased by less gluttonous banks...sort of like how easy it was to find cheap stuff on ebay when it first started up,but now that everybody knows about it, it's just a shittier version of amazon with less new stuff.\n\nif ebay fails, other auction sites with different features and protocols will emerge. the site that is the most popular will thrive and grow, and if it fails others will pop up. the problem is not that the banks are too big to fail, but that we think they are and are not allowing them to do so. the idea that failure of these banks is tantamount to catastrophe is just baseless terrorism. they all have assets, but a lot of rich people are afraid of having to feel insecure.\n\nthis stimulus is welfare for the rich. who is actually suffering? the poor are paid for, the rich are paid for, and the people actually working hard are just sort of used to pay for everything. there's an interesting biological analogy that can be made from that, but i'm tired fo typing.\n\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>cyan</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 6>>\nNo, the USSR and the British did.\n<<update>>\nThe americans joined because japan attacked them so they were forced... If they were never attacked, i highly doubt the Americans would have joined the allies.\n\nI'm glad you think USA saved us, but its not the case, they did help, but our saviour? - Naw.\n\nso stfu and learn some goddamn history.\n\n[[history?]]
<html><h2>cyan</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 2>>\nThought he was American, i mean, why would any European stand up for USA? - "The land of the free" :]\n<<update>>\n[[it is called trolling :)]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nofc it would take a further degree of government oversight and regulation.\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 2>>\nwell, you already told me what you system of choice would be.\n<<update>>\nIs that or is it not theoretical?\n\n[[spain 1936]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 4>>\n<html><blockquote>\nI see, out of actual arguments again.\n</blockquote></html>\nhypocrisy is hypocrisy.\n<<update>>\n<html><blockquote>\nAnd if you had a job I gueess you would have said so by now...\n</blockquote></html>\ni have and i don't see how it's any of your fucking business.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nBut of course you are right, the working class has always been very fond and supportive of self-proclaimed intelectuals sitting at home roaming the internet and telling them what they should think.\n</blockquote></html>\n/me requires a shit load of supporting logs to believe this.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nReally, you should go to a factory and hold a speech there.\n</blockquote></html>\nprobably will, at some point.\n\n[[video tape the speech please.]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 2>>\nwell, if people have envy and envy leads to problems, than groups of people will have problems with envy.\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\n<html><blockquote>\nbut yeah I should have expected this, after all most of your arguments seem to come from your vivid imagination rather than actual knowledge.\n</blockquote></html>\nyeah? which ones?\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>hnns</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 8>>\nYou were downplaying the fact that many people aren't health insured. In the same sentence and reasoning you argue that in one hand you have people that can afford it but don't want it, in the other you mention "the rest" that can't afford it but since they are so "inept in self-management and prudance" ... then what? \n<<update>>\nhow does that sentence end in any other way than "they don't deserve it" when you're making a point in downplaying the 50M uninsured?\n\n[[The solution isn't to be found in forcing a whole reform on a whole system]]
<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 39>>\nHahaha, but a corporation only asks for your money!!!\n\nYour government asks for your money AND obedience. \n\nMaybe your government will ask you to die in a war for it??? What does a corporation ask for? "Buy our shit!" that's all they want...\n\nThat doesn't mean, however, that governments don't have a purpose. They are meant, solely, to save man from himself. That men a creatures of passion and unreason (at the worst of times). If all men were always reasonable, calm and gentle, and intelligent in every situation, we wouldn't need governments. But it's a sad fact of human nature that most men cannot control their emotions and thence we have violent, selfish crimes such as theft, rape and murder.\n\nCorporations, on the other hand, are distinctly without passions and emotions (unless we're talking about sole-proprietorships) for they have a clear goal (making a profit) and have very specific information they need in order to make their choices. They're often much more reasonable in making decisions based on empirical information and not based on some whim or emotional attitude -- they make decisions as a group, sit in endless conferences deciding the best plan of action. When was the last time you saw Pepsi release a public "Fuck you" to Coca-cola and have their employees TP Coca-cola's factories?\n\nBut then corporations are often willing to coldly, heartlessly exploit things that may very well be unethical. For instance, tobacco products have been known to cause cancer for quite sometime and the American Tobacco industry tried covering this up. In these types of situations, government has a role in regulating private industry.\n\nSo it's a symbiotic relationship. Corporations being rational, reasonable entities without passion/emotion and being a much more efficient than Government. Government, on the other hand, is a lumbering buearacracy, inefficient, slow, pedantic, and at the worst of times, entirely inept in making sound decisions. Government is further stifled by the fact that the administrating officials are often politicians who have no idea how to be operative leaders or how to make decisions other than who color tie to wear on the campaign trail.\n\n[[corporations have been asking the government]]
<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 3>>\ncorporations have been asking the government to influence and enforce societal financial contribution to their businesses for quite a while in the united states.\n\n[[And why shouldn't the Government listen?]]
<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 11>>\nExactly. They only have themselves to blame.\n<<update>>\nGive a man a fish and feed him for a day. Or teach the man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. \n\nAnd what everyone is talking about when they advocate healthcare reform is saying, "make all the people who know how to fish feed all the people who don't". But OOHHH NO, let's not require that anyone attempt to teach anyone how to fish... nor do we ask the people who don't know how that they should learn the skill.\n\nBoohoo, I'm a horrible person aren't I? Would I be a much nicer person if I just said that everyone should be entitled to healthcare without working for it???\n\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>iNkind</h2></html>\n\nI don't think a single MP or political party is against it here anymore which goes to show how successful it is.\n\nI'm actually surprised you've got people like that in positions of power.\n\n[[the business lobby is strong in this one]]
<html><h2>focus</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 7>>\n<html><blockquote>\nIf we're going to have a bleeding heart for every unfortunate thing in the world, how are we to function? Probably reforming education in the US would be a much, much better and more efficient use of $900 billion.\n<<update>>\nThere's always going to be those with and those without and this can't be avoided.\n</blockquote></html>\nReally? Fucking health-care, man? That is a "luxury" to you? \nI've got a nice job. I make nice money. I have a fat-ass benefits package, including full medical and dental through United Health, one of the best health insurance companies in the country.\n\nI can't even imagine myself being a big enough asshole to think that I deserve this kind of coverage and someone else in my country does not.\n\n[[Like I said before]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 2>>\nyour experiences probably do not accurately represent those that others have.\n<<update>>\n[[obviously you will find others]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 2>>\nwell, I said earlier that I was gunna reply to your funnies with a :D\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>baron Railgun</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>><<update>>\nhehe, nice 1\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>reslox</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 31>>\nThat's a very clumsy account of the fractional reserve system. If I didn't already know about fractional reserve, there is no way that I would've been any closer to understanding it merely going by your account. It's very simple. Given an initial deposit of $10,000 the bank is able to lend up to 90% of what it has, holding back a reserve, a "fractional reserve" of 10% (It's different in most countries but it's 10% in your country). Here's the abhorrent part, the bank does not take $9,000 from the $10,000 deposited, it creates a new (out of thin air) $9,000 that previously didn't exist and lends that out. The bank is making money (interest) on cash it never had! So now we have $19,000 in our microcosm, and since the only thing that gives the currency value is how abundant or scarce it is, we have devalued each individual dollar in the system. Now that there is more money in supply, there is far more potential for the banks to lend. Bear in mind only the principal amount for the loan is created as new money, but the money needed to pay back the interest is never created. This guarantees that we end up with an indebted society. Guarantees job losses through sharp contractions of the money supply, and yet we have certain people talking about how wonderfully free everyone is. Backing the currency with some commodity will ensure the integrity/value of the currency.\n<<update>>\nEquation --- \nTotal Money Created = Initial Deposit x (1 / Reserve Requirement) --- e.g. 100,000 = 10,000 x (1 / 0.10). \n\nThis increase is a factor of ten! You've compartmentalised your mind in to believing that two things can be true. A: the banks enlargen the money supply, and B: that this does not devalue the currency, when you say "However, it has not, in a very large economy, any effect of devaluing and appreciating the value of a currency.\n\n<html><hr></html>\n[[The dept of a country represents its wealth, not its dept! xD]]\n[[You must of researched before following up to my response]]\n[[I'm not sure I understand your equation.]]\n[[Nice summary of Zeitgeist 2]]
<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 15>>\nThe last part is factual. It is a FACT that it is illegal for hospitals, in America, to turn away people who have life-threatening medical emergencies. This is partially the reason why illegal immigrants are able to get full, 100% medical attention here in the US without paying any taxes or any fees for their medical treatment.\n<<update>>\nYeah, I think you understand where I'm coming from. People should be more responsible and less dependent. How to solve this dilemma? Well, that's what depresses me because I don't think people want to change themselves. They'd rather empty the national coffers (which, btw, easiest way to get elected to public office is by promising to empty national coffers).\n\nIt really is a problem with personal management. My reply to Focus on what I believe, I think, is how I generally see things (HERE).\n\nAnd maybe I am extremely cynical???\n\n[[you haven't taken in a single word]]\n[[I hear where you're coming from]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\n<html><blockquote>\nAnarcho-Capitalism seems to me to be a very good "direction" that should be explored, but that's the problem: social and political philosophy can't get "tried out"..\n</blockquote></html>\n<<update>>\n/me points at the 3rd world.\n\n[[?]]
<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>\n\nYou mean Republican as in someone who supports representative democracy?\n\n[[jonsey's first post reply. I am no longer a fan.]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nmaybe, but i've got my own opinions on that.\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nDeserving it has nothing to do with it.\n<<update>>\n[[You were downplaying]]
<html><h2>iNkind</h2></html>\n\nNo minimum wage?\n\nAre they insane, minimum wage has been a roaring success over here.\n\n[[yeah, the good experience other European countries made]]
<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 3>><<update>>\nI think it's the other way around. I think Americans don't know just how free they actually are. Only when they realize this will they actually behave freely.\n<<update>>\n[[If you're not free enough to hold on to your own money, you're not nearly free enough]]
<html><h2>About</h2></html>\n\nIn September of 2009, a member of a gaming forum at esreality.com created a discussion thread about socialism and its relationship to the <html><a href="https://www.quakelive.com/#!home" target="_blank" style="display:inline">Quake</a></html> community. Over the next several days, the forum's other users launched into a heated discussion about the topic. The responses ranged from genuine attempts at intelligent discussion to outright \n\n\n[[« back|Start]]
<html><h2>tourist</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nby a guy who thinks denmark was freed by the russians? sure\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>Liam</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 5>>\nListen, I don't care what part of Russia you're from... we are #1 in the world for health care at the moment and just because Obama is trying to mess with a winning system to make it "fair" doesn't mean all of America wants to change, we will win out eventually and regain our freedom.\n\n[[I hope there won't be another response]]
<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nThose are parodies? See what I post I responded to.\n<<update>>\n[[this sarcastic sentence:]]
<html><h2>iNkind</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nhaha, I love it.\n<<update>>\n[[Doesn't seem right]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 2>>\npretty vague condition, imo. dunno if he's referring to how i'm acting in this thread or the last one.\n<<update>>\n[[I did not mean it as a condition I am asking you to amend]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 8>>\nWhy would you want to make a classfight out of this?\n<<update>>\nI am not anti lower class at all. But I don't consider the people who do that part of the lower class. The stereotype of a lower class is for me someone who works badly paid jobs or at least wants to work.\n\nJust like you probably won't consider a rich person who gives everything he owns away to safe the company and with is the work place a prototype of the "rich class" do you?\n\n[[i'm not TRYING to make it that way.]]
raithza\n\nI never knew jonesy was a republican\n\n[[You mean Republican as in someone who supports representative democracy?]]\n\n[[Jonesy is.]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nsingle payer.\n<<update>>\n[[???]]
<html><h2>focus</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 5>>\nOk, if you're not trying to compare apples and oranges (healthcare =/= ferrari), then how can you say that there's any scenario that someone should not be able to get needed healthcare without losing a life's savings or home or declaring bankruptcy?\n<<update>>\nIf that's not your argument against it, what is?\n\n[[Which is more important:]]
<html><h2>Ignignokt</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nWeird how people like to pick and choose those things to fit their political agenda.\n<<update>>\n[[idd]]
<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 5>>\nHowever, all 300 million citizens are not without healthcare. In fact, that number is much lower. Moreover, the number of people that *could* pay for healthcare but choose not to reduces that number and again further reduced by noting the people who are inept in self-management and prudence to be able to afford it.\n<<update>>\n<html><hr></html>\n[[Excellent analysis!!!]]\n[[I've read it's a lot closer to fifteen million]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 3>>\nsocialism=workers control of the means of production.\ncapitalism=private control of the means of production.\ncommunism=state control of the means of production.\n<<update>>\nit's quite easy.\n\n[[Those are parodies?]]
<html><h2>tourist</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nno, you're just a clueless hippie.\n<<update>>\n[[Stop replying]]
<html><h2>pakaloko</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 4>>\nBasic strategy of debates on here: If have nothing left worthwhile to say, shift to ridiculing a person based on their location on Earth.\n<<update>>\nAlso, wish to comment on anything I said? Or just gonna avoid and shift subject?\n\n[[i didn't]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nwhy in that context?\n<<update>>\n[[you said this:]]
<html><h2>focus</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 11>>\n<html><blockquote>\nBesides, you're better off stopping the bomb from becoming than trying to stop the explosion from destroying.\n</blockquote></html>\nThis, I think, is probably why cigarettes, and hopefully sodas soon, are being taxed so heavily.\n<<update>>\nLemme guess, you're a "libertarian", aren't you?\n\nedit: and so I'm clear, I'm against welfare handouts to able-bodied persons. What this amounts to is either people starving to death, or mandatory labor. I'm fine with both. If you actually refuse to contribute to society, then don't expect society to contribute to you. \n\nBut for people that haven't placed greed as their primary goal in life to lose what little they do have if they develop an illness or have some sort of accident, to me, is beyond callous.\n\n[[No, I'm not]]
<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nYes, because a whole political philosophy was just explained with your brief parody.\n<<update>>\n[[a whole political philosophy can be defined by one domestic issue.]]
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 3>>\nI'm not sure I understand your equation. Why would you divide the initial deposit by the reserve fraction?\nShouldn't it be: money created = initial deposit * (1 - 0,1) ?\n<<update>>\n[[Just put some numbers in your equation and it's clear]]
<html><a href="https://kentsheely.com" target="_blank" style="display:inline;">(c) kent sheely '13</a></html>
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 2>>\nOnly if you accept my T-Shirt with "I love generalyzing, therefore you are all idiots!"\n<<update>>\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>Eviili</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nrotfl americans talking about socialism, epic comedy!! \n\nHILARIOUS!!!1111 xD\n\n[[your informed argument was well presented]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 19>>\n<html><blockquote>\nthere is none, as in our previous discussion, which I did implied with the "again".\n</blockquote></html>\nare you saying i didn't produce any arguments at all, in the previous thread?\n\n<html><blockquote>\nYou didn't deliver back then..\n</blockquote></html>\nwhich thread are you talking about?\n\n<html><blockquote>\n..added insults and questioned my qualification..\n</blockquote></html>\ngonna need logs for this.\n\n<html><blockquote>\n..thus trying to invalidate my actual arguments.\n</blockquote></html>\ni didn't have to try anything. many of them were inherently invalid a la logical fallacy.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nWhen I called you out on the qualification, you got all defensive..\n</blockquote></html>\nbecause it's nothing but a personal attack and an attempt at ignoring the argument. red herring.\n\n<html><blockquote>\n..blamed me for going "ad hominem"..\n</blockquote></html>\nbecause you did, genius.\n\n<html><blockquote>\n..and accused me of bad ethics and lack of debate skills.\n</blockquote></html>\njust said you were in over your head, which is pretty obvious. wasn't trying to make some argument that you were incapable of being reasonable or anything like that. was just saying what i thought.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nAdditionally, you where attempting to impossibilty of being a competitor and the referee in one, by simply trying to brush away the arguments you didn't like, by claiming objective standards.\n</blockquote></html>\nwtf lol\n<<update>>\n<html><blockquote>\nWhile silmutaneously admitting you had very subjective ethics.\n</blockquote></html>\nsimultaneously with what?\n\n<html><blockquote>\nYeah, that pretty much sums you up.\n</blockquote></html>\nyea, that's all you got. you can tell me it's bad for someone to get welfare but can't tell me why it's ok for a boss to take the fruits of his worker's labor.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nHave a nice day (and please don't forget to keep posting those funnies once in a while :) )\n</blockquote></html>\ni'm spamming ur shit. hf.\n\n<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">\n<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>\n<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>\nYOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>\n<html></html>\n[[«« Restart|Start]]\n
<html><h2>becks</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 17>>\ntell me, isn't this below before both of those? Or do you see the fox news line as a compliment?\n<<update>>\n<html><blockquote>\nwrong. I do work for a wage and yes ultimately I have to do what my boss tells me. But that doesn't happen very often, usually my proposals are followed.\nAnd there is an enourmous difference in going home after work and having money to spend it and what slavery is really like.</blockquote></html>\nif you defy your master, then you will be left to starve or subordinate yourself to another tyrant.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nI am talking about that fact that everyone who decides to take welfare is effectively taking money from the people who do work without offering anything in return.</blockquote></html>\nnot really, it's taken from the state. those taxes were essentially stolen and might as well be used to FUCKING HELP PEOPLE.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nSociety as a whole would always be better of without them, as we would in fact need to pay less taxes and therefore get more money for our work.</blockquote></html>\nthis fantasy world that you want isn't going to happen. there is always going to be unemployment where there is no democracy. there are a tiny minority of investors who control all the means of production and they'll do whatever they can to keep unemployment rates as high as possible to keep wages down.\n\n<html><blockquote>\n..(whether it is too low is a different matter).\n</blockquote></html>\nit HAS TO BE lower than the value of the workers labor, otherwise someone sucks ass at capitalism.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nSomeone who takes Welfare just leeches.\n</blockquote></html>\nlike a boss who steals what you create and earns a profit off of it, without lifting a finger.\n\n<html><blockquote>\nIt's basically like someone who comes into your home every evening and demands that you let him eat your icecream. And when you tell him to gtfo he declares that buying his own icecream is such a hassle.\n</blockquote></html>\nis there like some kind of fox news in germany or some shit?\n\n[[it was a serious question.]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nspain 1936\n<<update>>\n[[we had that before]]
<html><h2>focus</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 3>>\nwww.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html\n<<update>>\nhealthcare-economist.com/2008/04/14/he...ld-france/\n\nThose massive inefficient bureaucracies are doing a heckuva job, I have to say...\n\n[[government oversight and regulation]]
<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>\n\nneg.
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\nwhere is the argument in my previous post? fucking idiot.\n<<update>>\n[[there is none]]
<html><h2>Drexciyian</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 4>>\nKILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE KILL A COMMIE \n<<update>>\nHonestly america is way worse than communist russia, at least they knew they were getting fucked while americans think they are free when they arent\n\n<html><hr></html>\n[[hehe, nice 1]]\n[[I think it's the other way around.]]
<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>\n<<set $score = $score + 1>>\n<html><blockquote>\nAlso I believe listing Kibbutz is not correct, because I don't think they adhere to all your principles. Imagine asking a Palestinean to move in with them.\n</blockquote></html>\nit's mostly pre-1948, genius. reading wiki is not rocket surgery.\n<<update>>\n[[uhm, you didn't make it clear]]